Griffin hate mail continuing

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Swampcat

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There are several rather curious statements I could quote from that Florida Today page, but this one is the most glaring [emphasis mine]:<br /><center><blockquote><p align="left"><font color="orange">"I just read your Sept. 28 article where NASA Administrator Michael Griffin said the space shuttle and space station were blunders.<br /><br />"<b><i>While I agree with him -- I felt the same way when these decisions were made</i></b> -- he should not have said it in public. He is the head of an agency with a legacy, and he is putting all of us down when he says that.<br /><br />"So now I find out I have been working on a mistake since my career started?"</font>/p></p></blockquote></center><br />Although I agree it was a mistake for Dr. Griffin to have made negative public comments about STS and ISS, it doesn't make sense to make a big deal out of it, especially when one agrees with them. How can you agree with what he said and then also say "now I find out I have been working on a mistake since my career started?" Someone is seriously confused. And he did not put anyone down except the initial decision makers.<br /><br />This issue is being blown way out of proportion. You guys need to re-orient your perspective. Or is something else going on here? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>
 
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wvbraun

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I hope Griffin's comments result in these whiners quitting their job at the agency. NASA does not need them. And I agree with swampcat, these people are seriously confused.
 
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toymaker

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I feel sorry for Griffin if he has to deal with such people while attempting to reform NASA. I must say the reaction is typical for bloated state institution, sadly.
 
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lunatic133

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My Human Spaceflight prof said something interesting today, that it seems strange that the mood about space exploration in general is so pessimistic right now even though things are more exciting than they have been in decades. I wonder why that is? People are weird sometimes. And we have a deep rooted need to complain :p
 
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shuttle_man

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"<br />I hope Griffin's comments result in these whiners quitting their job at the agency. NASA does not need them. And I agree with swampcat, these people are seriously confused."<br /><br />WRONG, it is you that is serious deluded by thinking it would be a good thing to lose most of the United Space Alliance, as that's what you're saying. This is not a handful of people.
 
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shuttle_man

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"I feel sorry for Griffin if he has to deal with such people while attempting to reform NASA. I must say the reaction is typical for bloated state institution, sadly."<br /><br />Wrong. The United Space Alliance is not NASA.
 
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shuttle_man

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A sensible post.<br /><br />This is the point lost on most here when it's so simple.<br /><br />It's not the opinion that is a problem, it was the way he came out and said our careers have been dedicated to a mistake in some way of trying to win HIMSELF some controversial maverick type praise when he's just an engineer like us and should know darn better than to say it to the press and then say absolutely nothing in response. It was very insulting.
 
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wvbraun

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"WRONG, it is you that is serious deluded by thinking it would be a good thing to lose most of the United Space Alliance, as that's what you're saying. This is not a handful of people."<br /><br /><br />What I'm saying is that it would be a good thing to get rid of the people who want to preserve the status quo and who are too immature or insecure to deal with the truth in a rational way. They are holding back progress in space exploration.
 
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wvbraun

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"...in some way of trying to win HIMSELF some controversial maverick type praise..."<br /><br />What BS. You don't know why Griffin said it. However, I strongly suspect he just wanted to be honest and tell things how they are. A good deed never goes unpunished.<br /><br /><br />"he's just an engineer"<br /><br />Yup. Just like Wernher von Braun was "just an engineer". I mean come on, Griffin is clearly more talented than 90% of the people working at NASA.<br /><br /><br />"...say absolutely nothing in response."<br /><br />Huh?<br /><br /><br />"It was very insulting."<br /><br />No offense but you sound like a five year old.
 
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Swampcat

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<font color="yellow">"A sensible post."</font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> Thank you.<br /><br />I really am trying to understand this controversy. I mean, is it possible that you guys made a mistake as well assuming Dr. Griffin was trashing your careers when he was not? It seems to me, as illustrated by what I quoted in my previous post, that some USA and NASA employees agree that the original decision to build the current STS was not the best way to go. IMO, Dr. Griffin was only stating what some of you believe as well. So what's the problem with that? It seems like a big logical jump to go from what he said to being insulted and feeling like he was saying you guys have wasted your time and careers.<br /><br />And just for the record, I have the utmost respect and admiration for the job you guys do. I'm also quite envious <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>
 
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shuttle_rtf

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>It's not the opinion that is a problem, it was the way he came out and said our careers have been dedicated to a mistake in some way of trying to win HIMSELF some controversial maverick type praise when he's just an engineer like us and should know darn better than to say it to the press and then say absolutely nothing in response. It was very insulting.<<br /><br />There are some important counter points to throw into the equation, however. <br /><br />Firstly, yes - I agree, it was a error on Griffin's part to be that candid to the media - without giving counter points to balance his opinion. Honesty is a virtue, but unfortunately the mass media aren't that forgiving. His open letter than followed gave the aforementioned balance to his opinion, so I was a bit surprised to see this is still on-going as if some people haven't seen the clarification from Griffin. <br /><br />He's a rocket scientist, not a press officer and he'll learn from this - at the very least his PR people should!<br /><br />It's interesting to see the full transcript of his quote sheet as he never actually said the now infamous quote "mistake" - he agreed with a leading question and was then paraphrased into a soundbtye which they led with.<br /> <br />I personally have the utmost respect for USA workers, especially after what they've been through, twice, and still bounced back. I don't need to go into what I'm referring to there. To that end I do understand the anger surrounding this initial article and don't agree with the posts which are disrespectful towards USA workers. <br /><br />However - especially following the counter statement from Griffin - it would be best for everyone to move on as the old phrase "yesterday's news is today's fish and chip paper" is very apt with this now. (The Americans on here won't have a clue what that phrase is all about! But it means the story is now old news and over. It's seems some people want it to be dragged on when both ends - I feel - have been closed).
 
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Swampcat

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<font color="yellow">"...'yesterday's news is today's fish and chip paper'..."</font><br /><br />When I lived in Vermont I used to buy fish and chips from a local deli. What they called chips looked like french fries to me <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />. Or are they called freedom fries now? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Anyway, I agree. This issue seems to have gone way beyond its worth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>
 
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toymaker

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wvbraun-living in a former socialist country I know this reaction.Its common among state employees-"don't complain, hide under the rug, and let us continue our rituals in comfortable stagnation". Its more about preserving a way of life that is beneficial then achievements of the corporation.And perhaps there is the problem...
 
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vt_hokie

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<i>"My Human Spaceflight prof said something interesting today, that it seems strange that the mood about space exploration in general is so pessimistic right now even though things are more exciting than they have been in decades."</i><br /><br />I don't agree that things are more exciting than they've been in decades. (Well, maybe they are because of the likes of Burt Rutan and other "little guys", but not NASA.) After growing up in the age of the space shuttle, and being told as a child that within my lifetime spaceflight would become much more routine, and then seeing the U.S. give up on ambitious groundbreaking programs like NASP and VentureStar in favor of recreating a tin can Apollo capsule launched with 1970's shuttle hardware, with the lackluster goal of sending 4 humans back to the moon in 15 years, it's hard to get excited.
 
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radarredux

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> <i><font color="yellow">I wonder why that is?</font>/i><br /><br />You should ask your professor for his/her opinion as to why this is the case.</i>
 
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radarredux

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> <i><font color="yellow">I know, Griffin apologized. Still stings is the general feel here.</font>/i><br /><br />Hmm... The ISS was originally scheduled for completion in 2003 (based on the plan finalized in 1997). That puts ISS about 7 years and $30-40 billion behind schedule.<br /><br />Meanwhile the new parts of the ESAS was designed to keep as much of the STS team employed as possible.<br /><br />So while STS/ISS may feel that their feelings were hurt, maybe they should line up to apologize to all the other NASA and NASA-related contractors who have been getting pink slips this last month because of the STS/ISS budget fiasco. The latest is another 300+ employees at JPL.<br /><br />So as you cash your paycheck, keep your health benefits, build up your retirements, think about all those other people the bloated, financially disastrous STS/ISS has put out of work.</i>
 
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j05h

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Those letters are from the footsoldiers of the "fly in circles forever" crowd. Catherine Bond's letter especially, "Although he has another vision for the future and hopes to accomplish that by a moon landing in 2018, a different vision was formulated 30 years ago, and that was to fly the shuttle."<br /><br />Fly the Shuttle FOREVER and suck the rest of the budget dry. Thanks, sister. Yes, Catherine Bond, you are part of the aerospace problem. You are the reason that "Mark" in the previous letter wants robots-only. <br /><br />The funny thing about this bleating from the whole of the NASA-Prime voices is that the current VSE uses the most Shuttle components possible! Dr. Griffin has effectively SAVED your jobs! He could have just as easily followed something more like the Draper or SpaceHab Constellation proposals - many ELV launchs and complete STS disuse. This way, Ms. Bond and many others get to keep their jobs for another cycle. My wife has a word for these people: whiny-butts. <br /><br />I agree with spacester (IIRC) from a few days ago: it is ridiculous to expect to do the same task for your whole career. <br /><br />I think it is a tragedy that JPL is cutting staff when they have accomplished so much of late. The staff cuts might do better in certain other Centers: at least JPL regularly flies hardware. Sorry to be parochial, but they sure are rewarding failure and punishing success. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>
 
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spaceiscool

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I agree with that as its the old arrogant peopel that work with shuttles that are the main problem. people on this forum no that so they cry on deaf ears.
 
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mattblack

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Nasa needs our help, guys. If Mr Griffin has stepped on some toes it appears that he's largely apologised. Perhaps it's not so much a question of what he said but HOW he said it. And the anti-space, flat-earthers and Nasa-bashers will use all the ammunition they can get to stop the future we're all building for.<br /><br />Let's all start to forgive and forget and try to move forward together. We've got a lot of work to do and a big fight ahead against those who want to stop manned spaceflight altogether. Think I'm exaggerating? Think again!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>
 
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mental_avenger

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s-man says: <font color="yellow"> it was the way he came out and said our careers have been dedicated to a mistake </font><br /><br />IOW, the truth hurts. I agree that it was not very diplomatic, but sometimes, someone must have the guts to admit to a mistake. IMO, the admission should have been made long ago.<br /><br />s-man says: <font color="yellow"> in some way of trying to win HIMSELF some controversial maverick type praise </font><br /><br />Give me a break. I have to admire some who risks it all to reveal what so many people have known for a long time but have been afraid to admit.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>
 
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mental_avenger

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I find it hard to believe that so much money could be spent on the ISS for so little return. For that investment, they should have been able to build a rotating wheel station ten times the size of the ISS, with capabilities far beyond what is being done now. IMO, the ISS was a step backwards.<br /><br />NASA could have done so much better with several dedicated single purpose vehicles instead of trying to make one vehicle to do it all. Often it is like a city bus carrying 7 passengers and a suitcase. Instead of the STS, they should have made a taxi, a truck, and a robotic cargo HLV.<br /><br />I know hindsight is 20/20, but these guys were supposed to be rocket scientists after all. Oh, I forgot, it was the politician who designed this hardware.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>
 
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j05h

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>Nasa needs our help, guys. If Mr Griffin has steppe... anti-space, flat-earthers and Nasa-bashers will use all the ammunition they can get to stop the future we're all building for.<br /><br /> />Let's all start to forgive and forget and try to move forward ... altogether. Think I'm exaggerating? Think again!!<br /><br />I have to agree with MattBlack here, fractiuousness in the pro-space community is always counterproductive. The conflict is especially irritating at conferences, an example being the childish digs at last year's Return to the Moon meet.<br /><br />(kicks hornet nest) However, I also think the NASA/contractor workers are being cry-babies. Most of them will be employed somehow in the VSE, but they just want to keep spinning in circles. This internal strife is another example of how lean, dedicated groups can achieve what monoliths can not. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>
 
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holmec

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I agree. Support your local NASA.<br /><br />Anyway if NASA is getting flack, they may just be on the right track. <br /><br /> /> I also think the NASA/contractor workers are being cry-babies.<<br /><br />Nobody likes it when your job changes or there is uncertainty. So I'm not surprised that there may be strife amoung the engineers. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>
 
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dobbins

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Dr. Griffin simply told the truth, the STS and the ISS were blunders. I found his candor welcome and wish we had more people at NASA who were willing to admit errors.<br /><br />The STS was susposed to reduce launch costs. It didn't. It was susposed to fly 10 times a year. It can't. It was susposed to be safer than capsules. It isn't. That adds up to a failure in design.<br /><br />The ISS is the wrong station in the wrong orbit. Before the first module was launched we already knew that long term exposure to micro-gravity was harmful to human health. If a ground facility was that harmful to the health of the people in it OSHA would order it closed in a heartbeat. We need a station with artifical-gravity like the one Von Braun proposed over 50 years ago, and we need it in a more useful orbit where it can serve as a staging ground for deep space missions.<br /><br />You can't correct a mistake if you are unwilling to admit that you made one. It needs to be made very clear that the STS was a mistake for one reason. As the 2010 STS retirement date draws nearer ther will be political preasure to keep the STS flying, and doing so would be another mistake. It would divert funds away from the CEV delaying it's introduction.<br /><br />I fail to see why the workers are upset, they aren't the ones that made the mistake. They are doing a great job keeping the thing flying as much as it does considering they have to deal with dated technology that contains major design flaws. Credit for the mistakes rests on the shoulders of NASA HQ and the politicans that sjoved the STS down their throat then failed to provide the funds to do it right.<br />
 
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