How does gravity move stuff?!?!?!

rogers_buck · Oct 21, 2004

The cat, I'm afraid would definately get its excersize.

Maddad · Oct 21, 2004

Tom_Hobbes "Is it possible, in trying to understand your theory that space isn't erased but somehow ‘compressed' in the presence of mass. That seems to be the way a lot of people think of it. There are some other reasons that I think of it as actually having disappeared.

Saiph · Oct 21, 2004

heck, maybe I will post what I sent you maddad. Your dimpled space idea got me thinking about the issue again. I still think there's an issue with it not making things fall at the right rate...but I haven't had time to dig that out. However, I have come across (remembered rather) a mainstream interpretation of why the "slope" makes things fall to the bottom. It deals with time dilation, and conservation of energy. In short, gravity dilates time. Longer time means things move slower. Kinetic energy must be conserved. If atoms vibrate slower, that energy must go somewhere. This energy goes into translational motion of the whole object. Since time is slower towards the gravity source, the kinetic energy vector points that way, thus objects "fall" towards the source. That's the brief of it. I don't have to much time to go into depth. Just wanted to give you all a heads up and get you thinking. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Maddad · Oct 22, 2004

I've been thinking of your explanation for a couple of days. Can you think of any way to measure this effect? (Edited to add

Or to calculate how much of an effect we should see?

Saiph · Oct 22, 2004

I've got an idea on how to do it. Mainly you need to see how big time dilation is over a given distance, then calculate how much KE is lost due to the slower vibrations in the atoms. However, the details are beyond me (it's GR and some QM I don't remember so well) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Oct 24, 2004

Hey rogers_buck - Here's an interesting link that cosmictraveler posted in Freespace on this thread:The ILC and Fermilab The International Linear Collider at Fermilab (.pdf) It is a presentation which briefly discuss the HB, Symmetry, Symmetry Breaks and new Fermilab tech proposed in the ILC. Looks like Fermi doesn't want to leave the search up to CERN when they're ready to start up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

asafotidaman · Oct 24, 2004

Maddad ... Or anyone else .... Speaking of gravity caused by dimples in time dialating it etc ... while we are at getting to the bottom of that... here's a thought What would happen if.... I dug a manhole under where I stand and dug across the center of the earth getting out from the exact opposit side. In effect creating a tube that cuts accross all the way from where I stand ... through the center ... opening on the other side... yes u get the idea ... (Also, please for a moment let us assume that the liquid core NOT will fill back in ... somehow) Now... I jump in that hole. What will happen.......????

a_lost_packet_ · Oct 24, 2004

asafotidaman - What will happen.......???? Assuming that you could survive, you'd eventually come to rest in the center in a, more or less, weightless state and orbiting back and forth slightly along your original trajectory. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

tom_hobbes · Oct 24, 2004

Uh Oh. Didn't this generate a long and follicle dissecting thread once before? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I wish I could remember But my selective memory Won't let me - Mark Oliver Everett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Oct 24, 2004

heh heh probably. But, that's seems like "par for the course" on SDC nowadays. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

wisefool · Oct 30, 2004

I'm not disputing the distortion effect that gravity has on the path of light/space. What's odd, however, is the idea of using the metaphor of dimples in a sheet to explain it. After all, beautiful as the image is, these dimples are the result of earth's gravity toward the ground at right angles to the plane of the sheet. In other words, we have another version of the "cat is a cat" explanation.

drwayne · Oct 30, 2004

Actually, there is another way of looking at this. For each fundamental force, there is a particle that is an exchange particle for that force. For electromagnetic forces - it is a photon - in the case of gravitational forces, it is the graviton. The exchange particle theory posits that the exchange particle is the transferrance agent for the fundamental force. Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

kmarinas86 · Oct 30, 2004

Maybe subatomic particles of the universe are themselves are programmed to be gravitationally attracted toward one another... like a giant computer network

kmarinas86 · Oct 30, 2004

Can a volume be "nothing"? The inside of an atom is a whole lot of nothing, but when we see an object it looks solid. A object may have volume but its constituent parts occupy little or no volume whatsoever. A photon, proton, electron may be hollow for all humanity knows - they might not even have an simple spherical geometry. Objects with hollow atoms of hollow subatomicparticles that are made of even smaller hollow particles is a very hollow and "empty thing" indeed. And yet we can perceive this illusion of fulfillment of out of this infinity of hollow particles made of hollow particles... and ad infinitum.

Maddad · Oct 31, 2004

drwayne "For each fundamental force, there is a particle that is an exchange particle for that force. For electromagnetic forces - it is a photon - in the case of gravitational forces, it is the graviton. That only holds if gravity is a force. Einstein said that it was instead the warpage of space and time.

drwayne · Oct 31, 2004

True. Though one of the difficulties in non-classical physics is determining whether an intellectual model describes what is actually happening, or is simply a useful mathmatical construct. Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

kmarinas86 · Oct 31, 2004

Can we say space is more than nothing just because it is ....space? My hypothesis suggests that every massive particle is surrounded by its own space. This space is growing. Space as we know it is a mix of billions of "spaces" . Matter has mass because it produces space. Inertia is the action / reaction between the particle and its growing space. nah, I don't think so. space is continuum... i don't know anything about supposed "creation" or growth of space-time material. no matter how advanced our technology is, the particles have to come from somewhere (a larger particle can be built from smaller particles). we could be really advanced and create animals using lasers or other such things... but we can't create new energy that comes from nowhere. i think matter has mass because its there inherent property within the orignation of sub atomic that causes the particles to interact the way they do. i don't think that creating space-time out of other dimensions is possible. i don't believe in "growing, expanding space"... but i do believe in gravitational bending of light.

paintwoik · Nov 2, 2004

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />I suggest us to play a little with the idea that matter itself is the originator of space and our growing universe. <hr /></blockquote> I'd take that a little further by saying that matter is space.

a_lost_packet_ · Nov 2, 2004

kmarinas- i think matter has mass because its there inherent property within the orignation of sub atomic that causes the particles to interact the way they do. Go with that for a moment. "Inherent Property." Does that just mean... "it is because it is?" What is the cause of this "inherent property?" We can't have an inherrent property without a cause. At least, not without re-writing alot of theories that have been proven valid through observation and experiment. If the cause is bound to the particle, then the effect is bound to.... what? kmar - i don't think that creating space-time out of other dimensions is possible. Why? Certainly our concept of "space-time" as represented in 4D may not exist in some of these dimensions. However, it seems that using multiple dimensions (eleven at last count) is proving to be a very good tool. Of course, it may be wrong. However, there has to be some reason why it seems to be working so well. Usually, that would be because it is "right." I remember a comedian who's skit redefined the Universe as a collection of "Moleems." He structured relationships between them, used them to power his car and all sorts of nifty, physics-like examples. However, all he did was change some wording around. It may be that we will never know the truth. But, if we come up with a model that really works and is proven to be experimentally valid, what more can we do? Perhaps, someday, our future generations will look back on us and say "Bah! Dimensions! What idiots they were!" However, they can't deny that we didn't shirk our responsibility as intelligent and curious beings. P.S. Not singling your ideas out at all. Just rejoining the thread discussion and commenting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

How does gravity move stuff?!?!?!

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