How to debate a flat-Earther

[mbee1]

My observation. This space.com report discusses briefly *evidence* based observations supporting the spherical Earth. However, what about reports like this using QM? https://forums.space.com/threads/ne...rved-reality-into-question.33556/#post-524588

It would seem that *objective reality* cannot be determined then, thus flat earth folks can have a seat at the place of science too ---Rod

Reality is easy to determine, All you have to do is look at your living room floor. It is flat. Look at your back yard, most are flat. Loot at the street, most are flat . Look at the homes around you, most are in flat areas. By extension the county is flat, the state is flat, the country is flat and finally the world is flat with some ups and downs.

You cannot fall off as the world is a closed universe just like the one in the heavens. If you do not like this than consider why are you debating with someone who does not want to listen?

 

[foxpup]

FYI, I pass this interesting 3 minute video on to others here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abLKzCaenvE
, Real Planets and Stars (Nikon P900) - YouTube

The video promotes flat earth astronomy and shows images of Venus, Vega, Mars, and Neptune. Lately I am enjoying some excellent Mars and Venus viewing using my telescopes from 70x to 216x views and with various filters. I have enjoyed views of Neptune too, including Vega. Flat earth videos like Real Planets are highly, defocused images so some FE teachers are trolls apparently or perhaps do not know how to use the equipment Be careful, I have watched a large number of FE videos on the Moon, planets, and stars and using my 90-mm refractor telescope and 10-inch Newtonian, cannot duplicate what is shown to the public on the Internet

I wonder if the stripeyness of the planetary out-of-focus image choresponds to the geometry of some aspect of the telescope used to make the image, like the line on the secondary mirror of a newtonian telescope that is perpendicular to the light's reflection. I'm not sure how the stripes happen, but if it matches up with the telescope's geometry, then we know where to look to identify the effect.

 

[Truthseeker007]

I don't think the Earth is flat just by seeing that the Moon and Sun are not flat. So it would be very odd for the Earth not to be round or oval.

I do think it is great people ask questions since we have been lied to on just about everything since birth. No wonder people are even questioning if the Earth is round with so many lies that are told to us by governments, science, religions,education and mainstream media.

So really we need to ask questions about everything. That is a great thing. If entitles don't like you questioning something it means they are hiding something and also if something is censored it is something they don't want you to see and are hiding something. AKA big censorship going on in all the media giants like YT, FB, Twit and on and on. So we know they are hiding something or they don't want you to know something or think about something if it goes against their agenda. So if something is banned you know you are getting close to the truth.

And at last, it is always best to do your own research on things and don't just take anybody's word for it. Especially if it is told to you by the media, corporations, governments and schools. They are the biggest known propagandist and liars on this Earth.

 

[foxpup]

I don't think the Earth is flat just by seeing that the Moon and Sun are not flat. So it would be very odd for the Earth not to be round or oval.

I do think it is great people ask questions since we have been lied to on just about everything since birth. No wonder people are even questioning if the Earth is round with so many lies that are told to us by governments, science, religions,education and mainstream media.

So really we need to ask questions about everything. That is a great thing. If entitles don't like you questioning something it means they are hiding something and also if something is censored it is something they don't want you to see and are hiding something. AKA big censorship going on in all the media giants like YT, FB, Twit and on and on. So we know they are hiding something or they don't want you to know something or think about something if it goes against their agenda. So if something is banned you know you are getting close to the truth.

And at last, it is always best to do your own research on things and don't just take anybody's word for it. Especially if it is told to you by the media, corporations, governments and schools. They are the biggest known propagandist and liars on this Earth.

I see your position and generally agree with it, but we are not limited to just our own judgement and observations. We can ask ourselves if the matter is controversial or not. If I want to know the pin-out of the DB-9 serial port connector and go to Wikipedia to look it up, I can be confident that what I find is true because no-one has a vested interest in pushing false information. Now if I want to go and see if COVID19 is man-made or "just happened" one cannot easily get good information because of the reasons you stated. So controversy produces blinders. Now if we know where the blinders are, that helps, but in some contexts we are not even allowed to talk about lists of what is controversial or not so we then end up with moderators with their own personal lists but unwillingness to disclose what that list is, making things tyrannical and constantly unjust. I've seen it here at space.com. It's a real problem since having no moderators translates to mob-rule while having them leads to tyranny. It's what happens when too many people value social-truth (politically correct "facts") over real truth (what observation of the real world would tell us). I'd really like to know for sure if COVID19 is man-made or not but you cannot talk about it in most places while saying that it is a natural occurrence is socially acceptable. It's enough to make one think one is dealing with a cover-up and that the opposite is more likely ... that COVID19 IS man-made. Likewise, socially intelligent people when encountering extremely zealous anti-flat-earth people, think "Boy, they sure are defending their position aggressively. If what they say really was the truth would they need to push it so hard? Maybe the earth is flat." Of course anyone with any space interest knows the earth isn't flat, but the current situation could produce a lot of flat-earthers simply as a result of such religious zealousness by the anti-flat-earthers and the fact that truth now-a-days has become a rare and precious commodity. The truth about things in this universe is like a beautiful perfectly elusive vixen...almost never where you demand she be at...usually elsewhere and willing to be seen as long as you are brave enough to look where she actually is and not willing to turn her into something she doesn't want to be. Alas, we don't get to see her even close to often enough, especially on important things, but she is always somewhere and well worth pursuing. (apologizing for anthropomorphizing but the metaphor is useful)

 

[rod]

Flat earth will continue. It is a frame of reference problem for many observations. People walking around in everyday activities, look and see much flatness around them, even driving long distances in cars. Change your frame of reference for the observations, and you will see a round, rotating Mars for example using good telescopes. The same for the Moon (different phases reveal a 3D shape with craters wrapping around the lunar limb to the other side at high magnification), Sun with sunspots rotating (a around Sun). The Earth observed from space, provides a different frame of reference from viewing on the ground here. Earth is a large, round planet using that frame of reference.

The historic flight of Apollo 8

As we celebrate the golden anniversary of humanity’s first trip to the Moon, command module pilot Jim Lovell recounts the epic voyage.

www.astronomy.com

Israeli Moon Lander Snaps Epic Space Selfie with a Full Earth

The newly released photo shows the robotic lander, known as Beresheet, looking back at Earth from a distance of 23,363.5 miles (37,600 kilometers).

www.space.com

Israeli Moon Lander Tweaks Orbit to Prep for Thursday Lunar Arrival

And touchdown will occur on April 11, if all goes according to plan.

www.space.com

If flat earth teachers throw out space images like Apollo 8 or Israel's Earth images from their 2019 lunar landing attempt, you can always walk around on a flat earth because it looks like that from your frame of reference

 

[foxpup]

Flat earth will continue. It is a frame of reference problem for many observations. People walking around in everyday activities, look and see much flatness around them, even driving long distances in cars. Change your frame of reference for the observations, and you will see a round, rotating Mars for example using good telescopes. The same for the Moon (different phases reveal a 3D shape with craters wrapping around the lunar limb to the other side at high magnification), Sun with sunspots rotating (a around Sun). The Earth observed from space, provides a different frame of reference from viewing on the ground here. Earth is a large, round planet using that frame of reference.

The historic flight of Apollo 8

As we celebrate the golden anniversary of humanity’s first trip to the Moon, command module pilot Jim Lovell recounts the epic voyage.

www.astronomy.com

Israeli Moon Lander Snaps Epic Space Selfie with a Full Earth

The newly released photo shows the robotic lander, known as Beresheet, looking back at Earth from a distance of 23,363.5 miles (37,600 kilometers).

www.space.com

Israeli Moon Lander Tweaks Orbit to Prep for Thursday Lunar Arrival

And touchdown will occur on April 11, if all goes according to plan.

www.space.com

If flat earth teachers throw out space images like Apollo 8 or Israel's Earth images from their 2019 lunar landing attempt, you can always walk around on a flat earth because it looks like that from your frame of reference

Even if one could produce truckloads of incontrovertible evidence, convincing some flat-earthers otherwise will be impossible. In the most likely situation they are just pushing your buttons and pretending to be flat-earthers just to annoy you. There is also the rare possibility where they really do believe in a flat earth. That very rare situation does illustrate an interesting social phenomenon. If one is taught a large enough "constellation" of mutually consistent ideas, that cluster of ideas become fixed in the mind of the holder even if they are false. If one tries to cast doubt on one perception, it challenges the authority of a chorus of other associated things they "know" and you cannot dislodge the believer's idea even with the strongest piece of evidence no matter how much good solid evidence you have about the earth being roundish. You can only show one piece of evidence at a time and the person can repel each fact individually so it doesn't matter how much evidence you have. It's sad how a mind can contain a whole set of false inter-reinforcing beliefs that together become irremovable but It happens. Lots of cults work that way. Still, I think with flat-earthers, MOST of the time they are just pushing your buttons if you go around acting like someone who would likely be annoyed by someone being one. Lots of people like pushing other people's buttons, just for fun. Human depravity...we're all guilty of some of it. Whatever happens with people it's best not to let the flat-earth nonsense get under your skin. You can just reject it as nonsense and laugh. Actually, rejection of nonsense is what laughter is all about so I'd suggest doing a lot of it.

 

[Truthseeker007]

I see your position and generally agree with it, but we are not limited to just our own judgement and observations. We can ask ourselves if the matter is controversial or not. If I want to know the pin-out of the DB-9 serial port connector and go to Wikipedia to look it up, I can be confident that what I find is true because no-one has a vested interest in pushing false information. Now if I want to go and see if COVID19 is man-made or "just happened" one cannot easily get good information because of the reasons you stated. So controversy produces blinders. Now if we know where the blinders are, that helps, but in some contexts we are not even allowed to talk about lists of what is controversial or not so we then end up with moderators with their own personal lists but unwillingness to disclose what that list is, making things tyrannical and constantly unjust. I've seen it here at space.com. It's a real problem since having no moderators translates to mob-rule while having them leads to tyranny. It's what happens when too many people value social-truth (politically correct "facts") over real truth (what observation of the real world would tell us). I'd really like to know for sure if COVID19 is man-made or not but you cannot talk about it in most places while saying that it is a natural occurrence is socially acceptable. It's enough to make one think one is dealing with a cover-up and that the opposite is more likely ... that COVID19 IS man-made. Likewise, socially intelligent people when encountering extremely zealous anti-flat-earth people, think "Boy, they sure are defending their position aggressively. If what they say really was the truth would they need to push it so hard? Maybe the earth is flat." Of course anyone with any space interest knows the earth isn't flat, but the current situation could produce a lot of flat-earthers simply as a result of such religious zealousness by the anti-flat-earthers and the fact that truth now-a-days has become a rare and precious commodity. The truth about things in this universe is like a beautiful perfectly elusive vixen...almost never where you demand she be at...usually elsewhere and willing to be seen as long as you are brave enough to look where she actually is and not willing to turn her into something she doesn't want to be. Alas, we don't get to see her even close to often enough, especially on important things, but she is always somewhere and well worth pursuing. (apologizing for anthropomorphizing but the metaphor is useful)

Very well said. Well I have come to find that things that are being censored are more then likely the truth and things that are being pushed in the mainstream are not the truth sometimes filled with half truths to get the ignorant to sink their teeth in.

With knowledge comes power so it only makes sense that the controllers of the world don't want us to have real knowledge and keep us dumbed down and ignorant or the controllers will lose their control and power. For the most part I have come to find that everything you thought was true and you are told is true, most of the time is NOT. I think one of the best thing to know is don't believe what the MSM tells you. They are paid to push a certain agenda which usually is not to help humans overall.

 

[jamesrhunter]

My observation. This space.com report discusses briefly *evidence* based observations supporting the spherical Earth. However, what about reports like this using QM? https://forums.space.com/threads/ne...rved-reality-into-question.33556/#post-524588

It would seem that *objective reality* cannot be determined then, thus flat earth folks can have a seat at the place of science too ---Rod

Iv'e read the article you have linked to, and for the basis of this comment, I will accept that theory as a reality.

We have no perfect theory for understanding the universe and what we observe as reality, but we have to work with what we have. The scientific community has to widely agree on some basic fundamental "truths" about our reality in order to do what they do, including the spherical planetary bodied nature of the universe.

Now this understanding wasn't just formulated by one person and then accepted by everyone else. Its been studied by many over hundreds of years, therefore been corroborated many many times by many many people.

Now you can get into theory about the reality of reality and observation etc, but you still have to come to a point where a general understanding of why and how things are, is reached.

The evidence for the spherical "model" of the universe is a single model. It works.

The evidence for the flat earth is a collection of "models" that they can't get to work as a single, unified model. That's where their arguments falls down.

 

[serhiy1635]

People around the world believe our planet is flat. Here's the (surprising) truth about debating them.

How to debate a flat-Earther : Read more

I guess that if had met such kind of person and you are started to chat with him/her about the fact that Earth is not flat and he/she proves you the opposite it would be better for both and especially for you to stop that dialog or change the topic. It`s just a waste of time talking with such people at all

 

[Helio]

The evidence for the flat earth is a collection of "models" that they can't get to work as a single, unified model. That's where their arguments falls down.

It's worth emphasizing the importance of unification. It was the key support for Copernicus since his did unify observations with his model even though his accuracy was no better than Ptolemy's.

 

[Meistro]

Flat Earth. Honestly I really thought it was a joke or stunt of some kind when I heard about this. But then I like a challenge and couldn't help but try to think of ways to set them straight. I mean like on a common sense level. I've recently started researching telescopes and what telescope I want to buy. I have a loft with big windows with a great view of the moon so naturally I want to see for myself what is happening up there in great detail.

This lead me to YouTube to see what people could see on the moon and how detailed it was through the various telescopes I am considering. Many pictures and videos of the moon provided by the public online, that's a fact. I started noticing moon features matching between image or video sources. One particular feature was unlike most of the other typical round impact crater markings. This mark on the moon was similar to something you would expect to see if an object did not impact perpendicular to the moons surface. It looked more like it scared the moon but didn't land there. Barely scraping the surface. I started looking for this "easy to spot" feature on all pictures and videos I could find that offered the detail.

I found it on many different image sources.
Ok big deal right?
What I had noticed was some images were "upside down". I was thinking, what? Then I realized that someone viewing the moon who, for example was in South America, would see the "upside down" view of what I would be witnessing. Considering the fact that I'm in USA of course, because the moon would be visible to us both at the same time. ( I think, I didn't research that deep yet)

So I made a full scale CAD model of part of the solar system from the Sun to Mars and all in between. Then I added orbit circles so I could find earth and the moon. Then I scaled it because it was difficult to focus in on Earth, Moon and Sun in same view. It was just too damn big to render. Then I removed the many gb huge textures off the moon and earth because while it was a nice pretty texture it slowed the entire process. Too much info here I know. To the point..

So if I have this CAD model of only the moon and earth, and set a camera viewpoint in Chicago aiming at the moon. Another camera set up equal distance opposite the equator aiming at the same moon. Both camera views "up" are directly opposing the center of the model Earth sphere. The moon model has a big arrow aiming up. (if there is such a reality as up for me now) Up for me being in the north hemisphere.


I did my best to explain my thoughts about this. I'm not really educated in this topic. I am also not bound to specific belief as a result and can offer my outside the box perspective.

How does the flat Earth argument or whatever its called explain this phenomenon with their model? I can't think how that would be possible if the Earth were flat. Sure the southern hemisphere, (or, the southern side of the flat map?) would see the same moon but wouldn't it be the same direction for everyone on flat earth then? This boggles my mind lol.

Meistro

 

[Helio]

What I had noticed was some images were "upside down". I was thinking, what? Then I realized that someone viewing the moon who, for example was in South America, would see the "upside down" view of what I would be witnessing. Considering the fact that I'm in USA of course, because the moon would be visible to us both at the same time. ( I think, I didn't research that deep yet)

That's a great point to make against the Flat Earthers. I don't know how they get around things being upside down.

Of course, we see all stars, but let's just pick the North star, Polaris, move in altitude up or down depending on whether we move north or south on Earth. But if Polaris was really, really close to us then they could dismiss it if they avoid any real mathematics to note the differences in their model.

But, as you note, if they go far enough south, the views of the Moon and planets will be upside down. This change is gradual at the equator, so flipping around the edge of a flat earth to get to the bottom won't work.

We assume, of course, that people are open to objective and clear evidence of one thing or another, but that's not an accurate assumption for all people. We all tend to believe what we want to believe, so those that understand this condition and are open to objective evidence will grow in understanding, those that don't won't.

 

[Susan]

It is unwise to engage Flat Earthers or other science deniers because their denial is due to ideology rather than facts. You could tell them that the Moon looks upside down in Australia and then ask them to explain that, but then disengage because they will simply throw word bombs at you to show that you're wrong and they are right.

 

[Meistro]

I can't wrap my head around how some people do not have an ounce of logic. I guess when a certain type of personality in a person runs out of things to worry about? Flat Earth?

I learned throughout time that those people feed on your response. They don't like it when they're trying to get a rise out of you and you resound, "Oh really? Wow." I think they want the argument interaction. What a better topic to pick than flat earth for that purpose. ?

 

[COLGeek]

Never let facts (science) stand in the way of a good argument!

 

[Meistro]

That's a great point to make against the Flat Earthers. I don't know how they get around things being upside down.

Of course, we see all stars, but let's just pick the North star, Polaris, move in altitude up or down depending on whether we move north or south on Earth. But if Polaris was really, really close to us then they could dismiss it if they avoid any real mathematics to note the differences in their model.

But, as you note, if they go far enough south, the views of the Moon and planets will be upside down. This change is gradual at the equator, so flipping around the edge of a flat earth to get to the bottom won't work.

We assume, of course, that people are open to objective and clear evidence of one thing or another, but that's not an accurate assumption for all people. We all tend to believe what we want to believe, so those that understand this condition and are open to objective evidence will grow in understanding, those that don't won't.

I think I'll post a link to my model regardless tonight. Maybe one of them will stumble upon it and realize reality. Never in my life did I ever think I'd be attempting to debunk flat earth LMAO.

 

[Meistro]

This is fun actually lol. Work in progress though.

PDF of description

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339827436712849408

The textures didn't stay attached
3D EARTH & MOON MODEL (not to scale)

 

[Meistro]

This is fun actually lol. Work in progress though.

PDF of description

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339827436712849408

The textures didn't stay attached
3D EARTH & MOON MODEL (not to scale)

Lets spark up some debate and see. lol

 

[Helio]

Nice artwork! I wonder if something like a flag pole on the top would help convey the differences, since it would be on the bottom for the southern observer after rotation for gravity.

 

[Meistro]

Nice artwork! I wonder if something like a flag pole on the top would help convey the differences, since it would be on the bottom for the southern observer after rotation for gravity.

Hey thanks. Thats funny you mention that because at 1am or whenever I thought the same thing. My image of it was a santa looking candy stripe pole LOL. It'll show up tonight.

 

[Meistro]

Nice artwork! I wonder if something like a flag pole on the top would help convey the differences, since it would be on the bottom for the southern observer after rotation for gravity.

I just realized what you meant. There's alot I'm learning from doing this though about how round the Earth is . I'm just going to keep messing around with it, creating material then I'll show you guys how to debunk a flat earther.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1340118492033523712

 

[Meistro]

Okay, lol. Best way to debate a flat earther is to 1st, don't make eye contact. Avoid them all together and go the opposite direction.

It's like trying to teach common sense. It must be some kind of Truman filter. It makes everything we see out in space round but I'm sure they are flat too, like the earth

 

[mofekka]

Reality is easy to determine, All you have to do is look at your living room floor. It is flat. Look at your back yard, most are flat. Loot at the street, most are flat . Look at the homes around you, most are in flat areas. By extension the county is flat, the state is flat, the country is flat and finally the world is flat with some ups and downs.

You cannot fall off as the world is a closed universe just like the one in the heavens. If you do not like this than consider why are you debating with someone who does not want to listen?

please explain the moon and its phases as simulated by a balloon circling a light source here

View: https://youtu.be/dd4N1fre6D4

this proves the moon is round. Why would the earth be flat?

 

[mofekka]

People around the world believe our planet is flat. Here's the (surprising) truth about debating them.

How to debate a flat-Earther : Read more

Here is a video I made of a ballon orbiting a light source mimicking the phases of the moon.

View: https://youtu.be/dd4N1fre6D4

this proves the moon is round. Why would the earth be flat?

 

[foxpup]

Here is a video I made of a ballon orbiting a light source mimicking the phases of the moon.

View: https://youtu.be/dd4N1fre6D4

this proves the moon is round. Why would the earth be flat?

Well...You have convincingly shown that the balloon in your hand is round. This demonstration fails to show anything about the state of the Earth....nothing like watching the progress Space-X does as it builds the StarLink satellite network. That's better evidence. Although I do not believe most people who claim to be flat earthers actually are, even those who are genuine are going to reisist the demo. Your demo emmulates the Sun and Moon, neither of which are the Earth so the demo misses the mark, not that it matters since most "flat-earthers" are acting that way just to push the buttons of those who hate them. They love to watch them react. Even I have pretended to be a flat-earther in the presence of a total jerk just to watch him get frustrated and take him down a notch in his ego. It's fun thinking up excuses as to why the Earth might be flat, even though we both know it isn't.