Hydrogen Emission

KickLaBuka · Dec 9, 2008

Could someone show me a picture of H+ emission?  Someone just told me that a proton has no emission.  If H+ was outpouring from the sun, what exactly do we see?  I find spectra of H(neutral), but this new information has left me dumbfounded.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -KickLaBuka </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Could someone show me a picture of H+ emission?  Someone just told me that a proton has no emission.  If H+ was outpouring from the sun, what exactly do we see?  I find spectra of H(neutral), but this new information has left me dumbfounded.   Posted by KickLaBuka</DIV> Since the emission comes from electrons changing energy levels, the fact that a proton (i.e. H+) has none isn't really surprising.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

origin · Dec 9, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Could someone show me a picture of H+ emission?  Someone just told me that a proton has no emission.  If H+ was outpouring from the sun, what exactly do we see?    Posted by KickLaBuka</DIV> You wouldn't see anything.  You only see photons.  If you heat up a piece of metal to red hot you are seeing photons that are emitted by the electrons of the metal.  If you walked through a lethal stream of proton (H+) or neutron radiation you would not see a thing you wouldn't even feel a thing you would just die some time after words due to the exposure.Kinda cool ain't it.  I use to be a radcon worker in nuclear power. Edited to say that actually you probably would feel the proton radiation - it would most likely raise your skin temperature because of the huge number of ionizing events happening on the skin.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Saiph · Dec 10, 2008

To elaborate a bit:  Light is emitted only when you cause an charged particle to accelerate.  A proton is a charged particle, but if it's moving at a constant speed, it will create no photons.  If it's velocity changes (in speed or direction) a photon will be emitted proportional to the change of velocity of the proton.As a H+ atom is just a naked proton, there is no electron in orbit around it to create any photons through emission (or block any through absorption) via standard atomic emission.  I.E. there is not, cannot, nor is there expected to be, a spectrum for H+. This is actually an underlying point in why astronomers thought the sun was made of Iron until ~1900.  Until they only saw a weak hydrogen spectrum and incorrectly interpreted to mean little hydrogen.  Indeed, 99.9999....% of the hydrogen on the sun is fully ionized, and is completely invisible.  It's only by determining the temperature and pressures of the sun's photosphere, then calculating the proportion between hydrogen and it's various energy states can you actually figure out how much is 'hiding'.  Look up the Saha-Boltzman equation if you're interested. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

origin · Dec 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>To elaborate a bit:  Light is emitted only when you cause an charged particle to accelerate.  A proton is a charged particle, but if it's moving at a constant speed, it will create no photons.  If it's velocity changes (in speed or direction) a photon will be emitted proportional to the change of velocity of the proton.As a H+ atom is just a naked proton, there is no electron in orbit around it to create any photons through emission (or block any through absorption) via standard atomic emission.  I.E. there is not, cannot, nor is there expected to be, a spectrum for H+. This is actually an underlying point in why astronomers thought the sun was made of Iron until ~1900.  Until they only saw a weak hydrogen spectrum and incorrectly interpreted to mean little hydrogen.  Indeed, 99.9999....% of the hydrogen on the sun is fully ionized, and is completely invisible.  It's only by determining the temperature and pressures of the sun's photosphere, then calculating the proportion between hydrogen and it's various energy states can you actually figure out how much is 'hiding'.  Look up the Saha-Boltzman equation if you're interested. Posted by Saiph</DIV> I did not know that a proton would emit a photon.  I know that water is a good moderator for fission because the neutrons hit protons in water molecules and transfer much of there momentum to them, thereby slowing down to become thermal neutrons.  Would a proton then emit light as it slowed down in the water? I recall that electrons only absorb or emitt photons depending on the orbit they are in around an atom.  So are there only descrete photon energies that a proton can absorb or emit?  Interesting stuff.edited to add:  I guess you actually answered my question in your post - the photon energy is not quantized.  That is, a lone proton it could absorb a continuum of energies.  Then I suppose that is also true for a lone electron - it is no longer bound to absorb photons of specific energies.  Is this right?  - again these are things I never considered.  Thanks for the information! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Saiph · Dec 11, 2008

Origin:  You've basically come to the correct conclusions. Way to go!I'll elaborate a bit though, because I like to hear myself talk. A free proton or electron...lets simplify that to a "free charge" can absorb any photon, as you said a "continuum" of photons.  The only difference is in how the charge reacts, as momentum and energy of the photon are conserved.  So the charge gets a kick in the direction the photon was going, and the size of the kick is proportional to the energy of the photon. Also a free charge that accelerates, due to say a magnetic field or a collission, EMITS a photon, once again proportional to the acceleration (energy change) of the charge.  This does mean protons from a nuclear reaction will shed photons in the cooling water.  Though there is another, seperate, effect called Kerenkov radiation that comes into play in such scenarios due to the extreme high speed (relativistic) of such photons. When an electron is in an atom, it is "bound" and only has specific 'quantized' energies it can absorb.  Anything else passes it by.  This is the key fact behind emission and absorption spectra, a fundamental tool in astronomy.  It also has more mundane consequences.  For instance it's why glass is clear!  The electrons in the atoms of glass are in energy states that do NOT allow them to absorb visible photons, and so they are transparent to us.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

derekmcd · Dec 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Though there is another, seperate, effect called Kerenkov radiation that comes into play in such scenarios due to the extreme high speed (relativistic) of such photons.  Posted by Saiph</DIV>Do you mean Cherenkov radiation?  Sounds really similar to what you are describing.  Earth based gamma ray telescopes use Cherenkov radiation to detect gamma rays as they generally don't make it very far through the atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

Saiph · Dec 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Do you mean Cherenkov radiation?  Sounds really similar to what you are describing.  Earth based gamma ray telescopes use Cherenkov radiation to detect gamma rays as they generally don't make it very far through the atmosphere. Posted by derekmcd</DIV> I do indeed mean Cherenkov.  Silly russian names and their hard ch! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

derekmcd · Dec 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I do indeed mean Cherenkov.  Silly russian names and their hard ch! Posted by Saiph</DIV>I've read all of Tom Clancy's books and just recently War and Peace.  I still struggle trying to read Russian names.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

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