I use to look up now i look down.

marijuanaman · Apr 8, 2006

The Gravito-Magnetic london moment is seriously one of the most interesting things i have read lately. Here is the ESA saying they have been testing and reproducing this effect over 200 times and it seems to me like no one here is even taking it seriously. Just because it clashed with einstiens theory of whatever. Why not just say, ok... these guys are claiming they are producing the numbers and coming up with something lets all try to see if it true or not.... Nope instead people look the other way. Im disapointed, Not only because of this but it seems like when ever someone has a Plausable idea theres always people that will just shut their brains down because it doesnt conform word for word with what their boyfriend Albert once said. I use to look up to scientist and smart people and dream that i could be like you guys but now i realize you people are all just "Haters". By the way im only 14 and im barley finsihing up claculus so i dont know as much as you guys and please dont insult me if there actually is a DEFINITE reason why this london moment is BS.... In conclusion, what i know is that the smartest people love to Turn their heads.

qso1 · Apr 8, 2006

Marijuana man: I use to look up to scientist and smart people and dream that i could be like you guys but now i realize you people are all just "Haters". Me: You've got a lot to learn. Maybe you should have thought to word this thread in the form of a question giving the scientific among this group a chance to repond first. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

jatslo · Apr 8, 2006

I do not look the other way; I am as open-minded as they get; however, I have not seen anything other than a news article on the subject matter... What I need to see is a repeatable effect outlined in a linear fashion, which is either hypothetical, and/or theoreretical in nature. This people will not concede to anything less than that, and news stories are not good sources of information. For example, propaganda takes center stage within the news media.

Saiph · Apr 9, 2006

To a certain extent, that's how things work. Sceintists love proving others are wrong. The only way something gets accepted, is if people can't prove it's all that wrong. If the thing you're talking about is correct, it'll get looked at. It may take a while, but everything in science takes a while, at least a decade. Why? A simple research project takes a month or so to evision, another few to set up, a few more to run, and another several to analyse and write about. That's at least a 1 year cycle, more if it gets complicated. And when that one paper is done, others will look at it, some few will feel interested enough to do their own study in response... Now, the more typical the report, the less flak it'll get, which makes sense. If someone came to you and said they saw a white school bus, instead of the standard yellow...odds are you'd go "you sure? I guess that could happen." and you may just leave it at that. But if they said it was purple with polka-dots...you'd begin to wonder if it was still a school bus at least, and either a) ask for proof or b) go check. however option "b" runs the risk of you looking duped by a guy thats either nutters, or playing a joke. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

colesakick · Apr 9, 2006

I read the paper on this, and young man, I have to tell you, this team didn’t even want to believe their own results (repeated the tests over 200 times ever tweaking the set up to be certain this was for real and not a test set-up problem). The team is practically begging for another lab to take a stab at this to prove or disprove these consistent results. The attitude is one of disbelief, “we must be doing something wrong, please do an independent study to see if we blew it here.” Someone will do an independent study, this is too ground breaking to be ignored. I expect that the scientists that will take this on are the ones pursuing the Plasma Universe model of cosmology, Aether physics and Zero Point Energy. They seek an alternate model to Relativity theory & Big Bang (gravity only model which failed to fit observations of galaxies so dark matter was evoked from some fertile imagination to patch it up). I encourage you not be angry at what you perceive to be suppression or avoidance of any new discovery. Science is very slow to adapt to evidence that negates any well engrained assumptions of the past. This is not deliberate, it is just the way human’s are. We like to forge solid foundations under our feet so that the world and universe makes sense to us. If we learn the “truth” one way, it is extremely difficult to consider another. You are young and fresh of mind. For you, grasping and accepting alternate models of science will be simple and exciting. For those well trained and experienced in the old ways, this is not at all easy and nearly impossible for most. Just learn to discriminate between assumptions and facts for yourself so that you are not snowed over thinking things like dark matter, dark energy, and the vast array of hypothetical material published in text books and journals are actually proven facts when they are not. Much of what scientists talk about are assumptions BASED on some observed fact(s) in an attempt to pl <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

colesakick · Apr 9, 2006

For those who don't know what this young lad is speaking about, here's a summary from the American Antigravity website: "An announcement of the first laboratory measurement of the Gravito-Magnetic London Moment was made by the European Space Agency (ESA) on March 23rd, 2006. The laboratory work was performed at the ARC Seibersdorf Reseach organization in Seibersdorf Austria under the direction of Dr M. Tajmar, with theoretical support provided by Dr. C.J. de Matos at ESA-HQ in Paris, France. What was actually measured? The first repeatable generation of a gravitational field in the lab. The effect was successfully reproduced over 200 times and is described in reference. More specifically, a tangential acceleration field was measured on the inside of a rotating superconductor. The largest effect was during sharp accelerations and decelerations of the rotating superconductor. With a Niobium superconductor, the application of a tangential acceleration to the disk of 1500 rad/s^2 resulted in an acceleration field outside of the disk of 100uG, 30 orders of magnitude larger than predicted by classical general relativity. Signal to noise ratios of the accelerometers were better than 3:1, and differential signals (derived with reference accelerometers) were used for bias removal. We can draw the following conclusions: • A gravitational field has been created in the laboratory. It is 30 orders of magnitude larger than predicted by general relativity. If it is magnified another 4 orders of magnitude it will provide lift, i.e. field propulsion. • A theoretical paper was also written that explains the effect in terms of a frame dragging field that is produced by the lagging of gravito-photons inside the bulk of the SC. • The resultant gravitational field can extend to outside the superconductor, and may therefore be used to “engineer the vacuum” in a variety of useful ways, including communication and propulsio <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

colesakick · Apr 9, 2006

For the white paper itself, go here: http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf#search='GravityMagnetic%20London%20Moment' For the follow up paper regarding the broader meaning of the findings go here: http://www.americanantigravity.com/documents/Seculine-ESA-Brief-March06.pdf Enjoy this moment, the age where notions about the universe come into finer focus as we learn to shed our assumptions and follow the evidence where it leads instead of constraining our thoughts about a mathematical model full of conjecture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

thermionic · Apr 9, 2006

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />people that will just shut their brains down because it doesnt conform word for word with what their boyfriend Albert once said. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />now i realize you people are all just "Haters". <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />please dont insult me <hr /></blockquote> What a wiley rascal you are! And such impecable manners! I can't say I've been keeping up with every thread here lately, but I haven't noticed the one where Gravito-Magnetic london moment is so harshly derided. You're welcome to persue whatever weird science interests you, as many people do. No one's stopping you. If you want to do something expensive and can't fund it yourself, you'll have to establish some trust from someone with the $$'s. You might want to leave the above comments out of your grant proposal. By the way, Boeing has (or had) a program in this area, and obviously ESA as well. People will try to verify the result you mentioned provided they don't find glaring procedural errors in the experiment. Everyone here would be happy if antigravity got invented, except for maybe SteveHW. Even my boyfriend Albert made it clear that gravity is not yet well understood. Cheers!

jatslo · Apr 9, 2006

I thought you were a guy, thermionic. Just goes to show that the Internet is anonomus as one would like it to be. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

yevaud · Apr 9, 2006

I have been working all weekend, so I haven't had an opportunity to post, really, until now. Well, Coles, here is where professional schooling and experience versus a lack of in a field interbangs. The "pedal meets the metal," so to speak. • A theoretical paper was also written that explains the effect in terms of a frame dragging field that is produced by the lagging of gravito-photons inside the bulk of the SC. You seem to believe this. Fine. You also inform us all that "we have problems with this," and "this does not adequately explain" in various threads, whenever you post a scientific topic, in reference to conventional thought in a scientific area of expertise. Very well, that's fair too. It is your right, after all. In the "EU Theory and Plasma Cosmology" thread, you purport that the EU theory is a correct paradigm. In this, you purport that this new possibility of anti-gravity is a correct paradigm. These two paradigms contradict each other. Pick one, please. It cannot be both. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

jatslo · Apr 9, 2006

Actually, it can be both, if you are talking about the same effect under two different names. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> For example, Gravity and Smavity describe the same effect, in which gravity is a phenomena, by the way. Smavity is a new word I created to describe an effect.

colesakick · Apr 9, 2006

Oh really, in what way do they contradict? Besides, I assert nothing but that the playing field needs to remain open as long as our standard assumtions remain unproven (got a beaker of dark matter or dark energy for us to test? How 'bout a wimp or black hole?) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

colesakick · Apr 10, 2006

Keep in mind you guys, this is a 14 yr old young man who started this thread, be nice would ya? Spew your venom on me in the threads you have specific issues with my position, not here. Or would you rather turn this budding science minded person off by showing the dark side of scientific debate by flogging me here in front of a kid? I asked him to curtail his anger and frustration at "you" (the collective "they," subjective, not objective as in personal to any of you in particular) and some of you jump in and give him every reason to be pissed (Therm, I know you can have better class than that when you want to have, show it now). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

marijuanaman · Apr 10, 2006

At the time when i started this thread my emotions were running high from other stresses and i realize now i could have said a couple things differently. I do apologive for sounding so naive. I realize now that there are a lot of good scientist out there and i didnt mean to sound so Condesending. Altough my body age is relativly young, my brain possess more power than a most adults. i must learn one thing thats harder than any mathmatical problem, which is gain the respect of my elders.

marijuanaman · Apr 10, 2006

I would also like to add that i did sound stupid and i understand the repsponse i got... and im sorry for that. As for the topic on the Gravito-magnetic london moment, You must understand that my love for science only start a couple years ago so there is definantly a lot i dont know.To me, at the time, this expierament seemed like something really new and ground breaking thats never been done before and i really thought it could go somewhere. Im just a young guy and i will be more carefull the way i view and say things <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

nova_explored · Apr 10, 2006

chances is are it will go somewhere. most of the scientific field agrees that this generation, the next 25 yrs, will see the most profound scientific breakthroughs in the history of mankind that will equal Einstein's theory of special relativity. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

yevaud · Apr 10, 2006

Simple answer: If EU states that gravity cannot be primary, then it cannot have the effects mainstream science states - including Frame dragging. Which means that EU beggars the question, doesn't it? If gravity is not such a strong force, how does frame-dragging, gravitational lensing, and relativistic effects - all observed - occur? Via electrical effects? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

CalliArcale · Apr 10, 2006

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />You must understand that my love for science only start a couple years ago so there is definantly a lot i dont know.<hr /></blockquote> Don't feel bad about not knowing a lot; that's the whole motivating factor behind science. Scientists investigate because they are curious -- because there are things they don't know. If that burning curiosity has gripped you, then you could have the makings of a very good scientist indeed. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> The hard part is to discipline oneself to patience, so you can do all the hard work neccesary with the appropriate amount of dilligence. It's hard work, but can be enormously rewarding in a personal sense. I failed to become a scientist myself; I've got an engineer's mind. But you're young enough that the possibilities are all very much open to you. BTW, if you had trouble finding a thread on this topic, it's not because nobody here is interested in it. It's actually being discussed in some of the other Uplink forums. Try Space Business & Technology, for instance. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

yevaud · Apr 10, 2006

I don't believe we hate each other at all. After all, you can't have a debate without both sides of the equation. Granted, we do get heated at times. We're stubborn people who believe our understanding of a particular scientific point of view is correct. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

colesakick · Apr 11, 2006

Thanks Yevaud, Seems to me that the “either or” scenario you suggest will resolve in a marriage in time. More likely, the two models will be married together with some pruning on both sides perhaps. No one suggests that gravity is irrelevant, only that it is not alone (and that electricity is king, gravity the prince). I am rather persuaded that gravitational lensing was introduced to explain the unexplainable (the nearness of items that under the standard model should not be associated, but under the EU model do belong together). As for frame dragging, not even on my radar. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Intellectual honesty means being willing to challenge yourself instead of others </div>

qso1 · Apr 11, 2006

MarijuanaMan: I would also like to add that i did sound stupid and i understand the repsponse i got... and im sorry for that. As for the topic on the Gravito-magnetic london moment, You must understand that my love for science only start a couple years ago so there is definantly a lot i dont know.To me, at the time, this expierament seemed like something really new and ground breaking thats never been done before and i really thought it could go somewhere. Im just a young guy and i will be more carefull the way i view and say things Me: Your comment shows you have now taken a big step towards being a mature adult. Some adults still never take this step. I certainly understand your enthusiasm and could relate to how I responded at 14 to each upcoming Apollo mission. Reality however, came into play when I learned Apollo was being curtailed. Apollos 18-20 canceled. As for the London moment. I haven't researched it enough to comment one way or the other. But assuming it is the start of something big, science is normally an incremental process after the big breakthrough. About a decade ago, ground breaking results were attained with superconductivity and they had levitated frogs using this principle. Today were still a long way from levitating and operating motor vehicles in a levitate mode. Superconductivity has many hurdles to overcome as does fusion power, cheap access to space, SSTs. However, breakthroughs will be made. Being young in this day and age is a real advantage. You may well live and still be relatively young enough to enjoy the benefits of something like the London moment which one day I hope will become routine. Not only that, you being interested in science is a good way to take that as a career path and maybe one day you will be in the history books for being part of a major breakthrough. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

yevaud · Apr 11, 2006

Now that's an entirely different story. There *are* various Electromagnetic effects and Astrophysical phenomenon involving plasmas, and so on. They do have relevance, certainly. And no one in the science world would deny that either (well, except for a few cranks). It's *how* relevant they are that's up for review, to some extent. Take MM's opening topic. Debate is fierce as to this subject. Yet, in all fairness, I find it far too early to make a yea/nay comment at this time. Perhaps they *have* found some sort of odd EM/Gravinometric effect after all. It's not neccessarily precluded. After all, at a high enough temperature, they are effectively the same force (along with the weak and strong nuclear forces). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

emperor_of_localgroup · Apr 11, 2006

This is a remarkable discovery if it holds up. Its sad, it took a teenage boy to direct us and raise our curiosity about a new discovery, when there was a misleading thread on this same London Moment before. I didn't bother to look up the subject. We now only wish if we could make superconductors at room temperature. What I understand from reading a few articles, this discovery does not violate General Relativity except the magnitude of gravity this scientists found is much higher than GR. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Earth is Boring </div>

infinityzero · Apr 25, 2006

http://dabacon.org/pontiff/?p=1215 "Of course you can color me skeptical. As Chad Orzel points out, the signal they are talking about is only about 3 times as strong as their noise. Now when you look at one of their runs, i.e. figure 4 of gr-qc/0603033, the peaks look pretty good, no? Well figure 4b is a little strange: the gravitomagnetic effect appears to occur before the acceleration. Okay a bit strange, but a single run proves nothing, right? Okay, what about figure 5? Ignore the temperature dependence now, but would you have picked out the peaks that they picked out? Okay so these things make me a little uneasy. Okay, so well certainly they did a lot of runs and tried to get some statistics on the effect. Indeed, they did something like this. This is figure 6. And this is what makes the paper frustrating: “Many measurements were conducted over a period from June to November 2005 to show the reproducibility of the results. Fig. 6 summarizes nearly 200 peaks of in-ring and above-ring tangential accelerations measured by the sensor and angular acceleration applied to the superconductors as identified e.g. in Fig 4 with both electric and air motor.” Why is this frustrating? Well because I have no clue how they analyzed their runs and obtained the tangential accelerations. Were the peaks extacted by hand? (And what is the angular acceleration? Is it the average acceleration?) Argh, I can’t tell from the paper."

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