Impact with Andromeda

adrenalynn · Dec 28, 2007

Ok, so we're still looking at the gravitational interactions betwixt 10.4 trillion massive objects? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

pyoko · Dec 28, 2007

Yep. Anyone have Mathematica installed? Go on, give it a whirl. Take some large assumptions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Yes, I have Mathematica. I'm not even going to try. I only have something approaching 100Ghz of processing power on my farm, and the time it'd take just to build that model would be psycho. Sounds like a good doctoral thesis [for someone else] to me... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

billslugg · Dec 29, 2007

Simplify it even further. Condense it to two dimensions. Line up the stars next to each other to make squares. 1 LY = 1E13 Km 1 LY^2 = 1E26 Km^2 1E26 is the same as 1 x 10 to the 26 power. The Milky Way has 4E11 stars each about 1E6 Km x 1E6 Km. Total area is 4E23 Km^2 or .004 LY^2 Andromeda has 1E12 stars each 1E6 Km x 1E6 Km. Total area is 1E24 Km^2 or .010 LY^2. M31 is 2E5 LY wide. Total area 3E10 LY^2. In that window is a spot .010 LY^2 You are going to try and hit it with a spot that is .004 LY^2 big You are basically throwing a dart at a spot of area 1 located on a wall of area 3x10^12 units large. The chance of two stars hitting when the MW and M-31 merge is about 1 chance in 3x10^12 . <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

alokmohan · Dec 29, 2007

Post deleted by alokmohan

alokmohan · Dec 29, 2007

Galaxies do collide.This what I gather.But it will be very dazzling,more that we can think.But in such collision stars will remain intact.

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Those numbers feel pretty loose to me. With the masses and interactions that we talking about here, I'm thinking that we'd be better looking in the quantum realm. This problem defines "chaos theory". --- Alokmohan, it's definitely not going to be "more than we can think". I've photographed galaxies merging. It's nothing that we can't look out into the night sky with a moderate home telescope and see. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

No offense, Bill, I understand you were following the request and making WAG assumptions by design. I had a look at my photos of merging galaxies, and then did some VERY crude models with thousands of massive objects (not Trillions) of identical size, mass, etc. I think your numbers may, in reality, be off many many orders of magnitude. What I observe is that we end-up with a "flock of birds" model around the "core" of the more massive galaxy. Even two globs can end-up being spiral galaxies when we're done. I observe tremendous gravitational interactions, as expected. The merging objects slingshot and "bounce" in and out of the gravitaty-well multiple times, especially at the edges. There can be dozens of "close calls" for every object at the edges as they sling in and out and make closer and closer passes to each other - classic "flock of birds". I'm still not certain how we can effectively calculate any meaningful odds of impact(s) though. Modeling it in smaller scale may not be as helpful as one would be inclined to immediately expect. As we add more mass the effect isn't linear. Maybe relativity can help us here. .. (?) Grrr - I have too many projects. I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this discussion... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

brellis · Dec 29, 2007

On a galactic scale, dark matter and dark energy, two big unknowns in our Einsteinian universe, must be part of the outcome for an earth-like planet such as ours. I observe tremendous gravitational interactions, as expected. The merging objects slingshot and "bounce" in and out of the gravitaty-well multiple times, especially at the edges. In fact, detailed observations like Adrenalynn's of galactic collisions might give us some clues about the "dark side". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

billslugg · Dec 29, 2007

Adrenalynn Yes, my analysis ignores recursive paths as stars whip around each other. On the other hand, having 12 orders of magnitude in reserve I can afford to be "many" orders off and still hold to the conclusion that a collision is unlikely. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

I agree - but the issue arises when one star goes whippin' around and gets trapped by another more massive star. At that point you could end-up with a collision. Since we see them interacting that way on a small scale, I'm supposing that with the numbers we're considering, something has just about got to give. After I finish modeling this 'bot I'm working on, I'll devote a little more time to a model, and produce an animation so we can see what I'm talking about. The scale will still be too small to be meaningful, however. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 29, 2007

It should be pointed out, that while the MW and Andromeda are approaching each other to some exteant, it is nor proven that the two galaxies will ever merge. They may not come close enough. The data has such large error bars, they could completely miss to the point where there would be minimal gravitational effects. So lets not get crazy here. If it can't be shown the galaxies will pass through each other at all, calculating odds for a stellar collision is fanciful speculation. IMHO, of course <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Sure - but are we just talking about Andromeda and us, or are we contemplating all those other galaxies out there that we *can observe* merging? NGC 2207/IC 2163, NGC 4038, NGC 2623, ... M51 is probably about finished merging, and the probable reason it's a whirlpool is because of the merger. Arp 220 is about the brightest thing visible in the local universe... Lots of opportunity for flights of fancy about things we know are happening as we watch, right? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 29, 2007

Yes, but the subject of this thread is " (MW) Impact with Andromeda" so that is what I was focusing on. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Ok, I appreciate that. When dealing with galaxies, I tend to take a wider view. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

pyoko · Dec 29, 2007

OK, guys. People are saying the calculation is hard to impossible. "In one dramatic scene in the movie 300, which came out early in 2007, several ships collide violently -- their hulls splinter, masts break, sails tear, and the ships sink. Stephan Trojansky, who worked on 300 as visual effects supervisor for the German-based company ScanlineVFX, said just creating the ocean in that scene involved simulating 128 billion elements. " from here Surely if a cartoon crew can do that, someone can do a simplified calculation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Oh sure! My farm can simulate 200 quadrillion totally meaningless fake nothings per femtosecond! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

pyoko · Dec 29, 2007

Indeed... so could you fake it? By the way, here in Australia, they call the Lottery (and gambling) the 'idiot tax'. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

adrenalynn · Dec 29, 2007

Sure! I could even add some nice "whoooshing" sounds, and some cool explosion sound effects, and maybe a space ship or two going to warp! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

alokmohan · Dec 30, 2007

But can galaxies collide?Not in case of andromeda?

adrenalynn · Dec 30, 2007

Yes. They can collide. As we can see hundreds of times in the visible universe. Please read my above posts. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

pyoko · Dec 30, 2007

You sound like my father <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Coca Cola is 'Kaka Kaka' Pepsi is 'Pissi Kaka' Computer games are 'Pow Pow Bang Bang' Computer animations in movies are 'Boom Boom' And he is a pHD. So I understand how you feel. P.S. I caught him laughing to 'Dennis the Menace'. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

alokmohan · Dec 30, 2007

Simulate or real thing?

adrenalynn · Dec 30, 2007

Real thing. I listed off a bunch of galaxies that we can observe merging, even with our backyard telescopes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

dragon04 · Dec 30, 2007

"Collision" is a very poor term to use. I can't even begin to imagine the complexities involved in simulating two galaxies, 800 billion stars, and untold massive quantities of interstellar gas and dust interacting to predict an outcome. I can assume that there will be potentially fatal and prodigious amounts of energetic radiation emitted that will be widespread during the epochal time frame of the merger between the MW and M31. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!". </div>

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