Infinite Space

[origin]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you <font color="yellow">Kalstang</font><br /><br />It is not a hard cold fact that space is finite. It is not a hard cold fact that the big bang occurred or that the sun is powered by fusion. These are very solid theories. <br /><br />Why do I say that space is finite? Based on the well documented theory of the big bang; the universe, at the moment before the big bang, was compacted into an infinitesimally small area. The big bang occurred approximately 16 billion years ago and is not expanding at an infinite speed. Therefore if the expansion started from essentially a point and expanded at a finite rate in a finite amount of time, its dimensions cannot be infinite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

This is what I have been wondering for a while. On TV programs about the universe esp. "Cosmos" when they show 3D maps of the universe are they showing distant object where they appear to be or where they are projected to be at that moment? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

origin: <font color="yellow">Based on the well documented theory of the big bang; the universe, at the moment before the big bang, was compacted into an infinitesimally small area.</font><br /><br />Assumeing that there was a BB. The BB has not been proven either. <br /><br />To tell the truth I personally am not the biggest fan of BB. For the simple fact that if there had been a BB then all the observed galaxies would be going in the same direction. But for some odd reason there are galaxies that are right next to each other collideing because each one is going the opposite way. <br /><br />I do happen to like CalliArcales way of thinking about the BB tho. Several BB's happened. In which case that would imply that there very well could be an infinate amount of space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Kalstang,<br /><br />"To tell the truth I personally am not the biggest fan of BB. For the simple fact that if there had been a BB then all the observed galaxies would be going in the same direction. But for some odd reason there are galaxies that are right next to each other collideing because each one is going the opposite way. "<br /><br />That is only true if you ignore the effect of gravity. Gravity overwhelms the expansion of space.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Well one would have to assume that they are showing the distant objects as where they are right at that moment. The computers adjusting for time and what not. But of course on the TV programs they can get to other area's of the universe in just a matter of at most a few hours. So the objects would prolly not have moved that much. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Quite true. However one has to ask how did the "lesser" galaxy get so close to the other galaxy for the gravity of the "greater" galaxy to affect it so much as to change its direction in the first place. (one would have to assume that at one point these galaxies were far enough apart to have enough gravity and distance from each other to have formed thier own galaxy.)<br /><br />We also have to ask this. If there had been one single big bang then why is it that we are all clustered into so many seperate galaxies. Why not just a few hundred at most? Instead there are several billion galaxies out there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

That's what the Cosmic Background Radiation first examined by COBE is telling us. The mass if the early universe was not evenly distributed. The minescule variations that existed femtoseconds after the big bang, when expanded led to the large scale distributions of mass that exist today.<br />Where matter was denser, there was enough matter for galaxies to form and be drawn toward each other by gravity.<br />In between there are much less dense regions where there's not enough mass to attract more mass <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">Assumeing that there was a BB. The BB has not been proven either.</font><br /><br />Nor will it ever be proven. That is not the way science works. <br /><br />The theory of the big bang was put forward and the based on that theory many predictions were made, many of the predictions have been shown to be true ,such as the background radiation. The BB theory has proven to be very robust. <br /><br />Your argument about the local affect of gravity on the expansion of the universe has been adressed long ago. Your skeptism of the BB is not held by the people who are experts in the field. I personally go with the experts.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Yeah the experts....History is replete with experts stateing this and that. Funny thing is...no one remembers the ones that were wrong...wonder just how many there were compared with how many that were right.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

In the long run, the truth floats to the top with more evidence, and the crap sinks.<br /><br />The right to wrong ratio is much better than you seem to think. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

MeteorWayne: <font color="yellow">In between there are much less dense regions where there's not enough mass to attract more mass </font><br /><br />That still doesnt explain why there are still galaxies that are comeing together. <br /><br />When the BB happened it expanded out right? And while they were expanding the mass and what not was getting farther and farther away from each other. Until the point that by the time this cluster of mass could be considered a galaxy by all rights they should have been too far apart for another galaxy to affect them. If they had been close enough for another galaxy to affect them then all the mass that went into that galaxy should have instead gone to the other one to form an even bigger galaxy..instead it formed its own galaxy. <br /><br />See what i'm getting at here? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

MeteorWayne: <font color="yellow">The right to wrong ratio is much better than you seem to think.</font><br /><br />Or are you just giveing it more credit then it deserves since we do not remember all the ones that were wrong? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Yeah I see, but we are talking about masses on the scale of millions of galaxies, not just a galaxy or two. If you look at the 3D structure of the universe, galaxies are not evenly spread out. They are in clusters, suoperclusters, and megaclusters.<br /><br />If you think of a galaxy at a time, what you are saying makes sense, but when you look at the large scale structure of the universe, it really does make sense too.<br /><br />Much larger than we humans can grok. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

NO, I study the history of science. There's lots of wrongs out there, but science is the pursuit of truth, and as evidence accumulates, the truth wins out. That's why I have 45 year's worth of Scientific Americans in my basement. It's fascinating to watch the process.<br /><br />It just may not be everything we assume at the moment <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

<font color="yellow">There's lots of wrongs out there, but science is the pursuit of truth, and as evidence accumulates, the truth wins out.</font><br /><br />I'll defineately agree with this. However I also must wonder just how many of today's truths will become tomarrow's lies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Lies is the too strong a word.<br /><br />We can both wonder how many of today's rights will become tomorrows wrongs. But lies? That implies deliberate intent.<br /><br />There aren't that many slimy people worth taking seriously out there. Certainly not many true scientists. IMHOWIOCR. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Yeah lies is too strong a word. I just couldnt think of the correct word at the moment so went with it. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<font color="orange">Yeah the experts....History is replete with experts stateing this and that. Funny thing is...no one remembers the ones that were wrong...wonder just how many there were compared with how many that were right....</font><br /><br />those of us who take their science seriously do remember many of those who were wrong and the history remembers them too, irony is that those who were at some time wrong were also at another time right (maybe in some other area), you just don't become and expert for nothing, also those experts who were wrong were important in their own way, else against whom would young scientists rebel and come up with something brilliant as the result... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacekud]

We all have to learn from our mistakes, its the only way we can fix something that is wrong. We are all taught to learn, to become civilized beings.

 

[spacekud]

So with this topic talked about, I know there is a large amount of galaxies out there but how much are we talking about, there wouldn't be an infinite number of galaxies and stars would there?

 

[robnissen]

Completely unknown. Our visible universe expanded from a point smaller than the planc length, but it is possible that the original singularity was twice the planc length, and most of the universe is now too far away for us ever to see. But there is no reason to stop there, the original singularity might have been the size of the Milky Way and thus the visibile universe is a trillionth/trillionth/trillionth/. . . trillionth of the actual universe. But again nothing to stop the original singularity from being bigger than our known universe, resulting in a massively larger universe, finally there is nothing to prevent the original singularity from being infinite, but talking about an infinite singularity expanding into infinite space (what could it possibly expand into, if it was infinite?) just gives me a headache. I think I will stop now.

 

[spacekud]

Thats kinda what I'm thinking how can something infinite expand when (what you said and many others have said) there is nothing to expand into, now if there was there would probably be more space, I just don't see a sphere for our universe or an edgless universe, I just don't see how it cannot "end" it just boggles me, I guess I'll just keep it as "edgless" I don't want to think about it anymore.

 

[SpeedFreek]

Yes, keeping it as "edgeless" is a good idea. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />This is where those strange people who look at equations and see the perfection in them have the upper hand. They don't need crude visualisations in order to see the underlying beauty in the physics of the universe!<br /><br />For the rest of us, a four dimensional manifold that may be finite but boundless is as good as it's going to get! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[spacekud]

so there is a limit to almost everything... in a way?, besides numbers heh. But there is a limited number of galaxies and stars?

 

[SpeedFreek]

<b> Probably. </b><br /><br />You might not have wanted to hear that, but that's how it is. As Rob was saying a few posts earlier, we don't know how much of the <b> whole </b> universe we can see in our <i> observable </i> universe.<br /><br />It is likely that there are a finite number of galaxies and stars in the whole universe, but it is by no means <i> certain. </i><br /><br />All we can do is look at our observable universe and try to work out what is going on, to see how it works. There are a finite number of galaxies and stars in our observable universe, billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each one. Isn't that enough? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>