Kaguya / Selene images Apollo 11 landing site & spots disturbed regolith.

3488 · Apr 6, 2008

Apollo 11 site spotted by Kaguya / Selene.http://wms.selene.jaxa.jp/data/jpn/mi/002/mi_002_1_l.jpg <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/7/1660438d-cbd3-4605-a7fc-8721a0f3382e.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Below showing the disturbed lunar regolith from Eagle's landing & Armstrong's & Aldrin's EVAs. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/15/d9a35a66-d70d-4a12-8ffe-83d4d178a051.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/12/21b73774-1e99-44e6-ac5b-5ee14b3357ba.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Apollo 11 site spotted by Kaguya / Posted by 3488</DIV> Ahh, that's very cool Andrew.Brings be back to my late teenage memories. THANX!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Apr 6, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ahh, that's very cool Andrew.Brings be back to my late teenage memories. THANX!!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>You are very welcome Wayne. This is great stuff. Kaguya / Selene is able to image the disturbed regolith from Eagle's landing as well as Armstrong's & Aldrin's EVAs. Lets hope Kaguya / Selene will do likewise of the other sites. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

job1207 · Apr 7, 2008

Seriously, I didn't see a lander or any foot prints. When do I get to see those?

MeteorWayne · Apr 7, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Seriously, I didn't see a lander or any foot prints. When do I get to see those? Posted by job1207</DIV>Footprints? That will be when we are placing new ones next to them... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

CalliArcale · Apr 7, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Seriously, I didn't see a lander or any foot prints. When do I get to see those? Posted by job1207</DIV>Astronomy can be very humbling sometimes -- it's really hard to make a mark big enough to actually see from an orbiting spacecraft.  The LMs are pretty small, and are even smaller and less conspicuous now than when they landed, since the ascent stages are gone.  So probes such as Selene/Kaguya and previously the USAF's Clementine (a technology demonstrator which also did some lunar science while it was in the neighborhood) have had to content themselves with detecting soil disturbed by the astronaut's feet and the "moon buggies" (LRVs).  And even that is barely big enough for a probe like Kaguya to see.Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, due to launch October 28* aboard an Atlas V, will be the most sophisticated unmanned orbiter ever sent to the Moon, on par with the ambitious unmanned planetary probes of the 80s and 90s.  It's being assembled right now.  It will be the first vehicle able to resolve the lunar landers from orbit.  It should give us lunar pictures that will absolutely take our collective breath away. * It is scheduled for October 28, but between Florida weather and the fact that the Eastern Range is shared with many other vehicles, there is plenty of possibility that it will slide.  I do not know how restrictive its launch window is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

silylene old · Apr 7, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Astronomy can be very humbling sometimes -- it's really hard to make a mark big enough to actually see from an orbiting spacecraft.  The LMs are pretty small, and are even smaller and less conspicuous now than when they landed, since the ascent stages are gone.  So probes such as Selene/Kaguya and previously the USAF's Clementine (a technology demonstrator which also did some lunar science while it was in the neighborhood) have had to content themselves with detecting soil disturbed by the astronaut's feet and the "moon buggies" (LRVs).  And even that is barely big enough for a probe like Kaguya to see.....Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>In retrospect....(I am posting here half tongue-in-cheek, and half seriously)Given the absurd power of the conspiracists, denialists, the media, creationists and other luddite cultures, Hollywood, the growing disinterest and apathy about science among our youth, and indeed the short term memory and history of our species  (I am thinking what might be fogotten or reverted to mythology or fables in 500 or 5000 or 50,000 years from now), I think we should have done one of the Apollo landings a little bit differently....We should have erected an unmistakable sign on the lunar surface, much more easily visible at least from orbit which says "WE WERE HERE!".Maybe a big mylar flag should have been unrolled on the surface.  Maybe reflective foil strips spelling out "U S A"  should have been laid on the surface.  Maybe a colorful Andy Worhol pop art should have been sprayed over the lunar regolith, or a giant peace symbol laid out in a crater.Then someday,  when a curious and intelligent  post-21st century species gazes upon the lunar surface again, they will know, "We were here !" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 7, 2008

Yeah, we just didn't have any huge 1:4:9 monoliths handy <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

aphh · Apr 7, 2008

Youth will be inspired by science once again when they will be able to lift up their eyes on the night sky, notice the Moon and realize, "my God, we have men and women living and working up there...".Let's get to the Moon ASAP, shall we.

frodo1008 · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In retrospect....(I am posting here half tongue-in-cheek, and half seriously)Given the absurd power of the conspiracists, denialists, the media, creationists and other luddite cultures, Hollywood, the growing disinterest and apathy about science among our youth, and indeed the short term memory and history of our species  (I am thinking what might be fogotten or reverted to mythology or fables in 500 or 5000 or 50,000 years from now), I think we should have done one of the Apollo landings a little bit differently....We should have erected an unmistakable sign on the lunar surface, much more easily visible at least from orbit which says "WE WERE HERE!".Maybe a big mylar flag should have been unrolled on the surface.  Maybe reflective foil strips spelling out "U S A"  should have been laid on the surface.  Maybe a colorful Andy Worhol pop art should have been sprayed over the lunar regolith, or a giant peace symbol laid out in a crater.Then someday,  when a curious and intelligent  post-21st century species gazes upon the lunar surface again, they will know, "We were here !" Posted by silylene</DIV> There is at least one thing that is there.  I believe it is Kitt Peak Arizona where a large telescope is coupled with a powerful laser beam.  This beam is shot out to the moon to reflect back and with simple timing give the moons distance to the Earth in inches! In order for the beam to actually be reflected back to the Earth there has to be something on the moon that is far more reflective than the moons natural surface.  This something is reflectors placed upon the moon at several of the Apollo landing spots by the Apollo astronauts.  As such a delicate placement could NOT have been accomplished by the robotics of the time it MUST have been human beings that did it! This was all brought out on an excellent National Geographic program on the Apollo program and the "Moon Hoax" types.  The astronomer in charge of the project then told the National Geographic people that none of the "Moon Hoax" types had ever visited his telescope.   I wonder why such champions of truth have never done that?   I went out and Goggled “the distance from the Earth to the moon” and actually got several articles on this.  There is also a Tom Murphy, an astronomer from the University of Washington that us using a large telescope at Apache Point in New Mexico who is also using the same reflectors that the Apollo astronauts placed on the moon.  He is using advanced methods to get the distance from the earth to the moon down to a measurement with a millimeter accuracy (that is about 0.040 of an inch)!! So there IS absolute proof that the Apollo Astronauts walked upon the moon!!

job1207 · Apr 8, 2008

Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, due to launch October 28* aboard an Atlas V, will be the most sophisticated unmanned orbiter ever sent to the Moon, on par with the ambitious unmanned planetary probes of the 80s and 90s.  It's being assembled right now.  It will be the first vehicle able to resolve the lunar landers from orbit.  It should give us lunar pictures that will absolutely take our collective breath away. I was thinking that my post would bring out all kinds of responses. This is the one I really wanted to see. I am glad that they will be able to resolve the lunar landing sites from orbit THIS YEAR. Great. Then we will be able to see the signs left by Buzz and Neil. We were here, written in the Lunar dust.

CalliArcale · Apr 8, 2008

...I'm not sure exactly how clear the LMs will be.  I guess waht I'm saying is not to get your hopes up too much.  There results may be comparable to the MRO pics of the MERs -- that is, you can just barely make out what it is.  (Which is darned impressive, really.)  It depends partly on what LRO's orbit will be like, because that will determine what the best possible shooting conditions will be like.The LM descent stages (the bottom parts of the landers) will still be sitting exactly where they were left, almost 40 years ago.  (Wow.  Next year will be the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11.  I just realized that.  Time flies.)  Tracks should still be visible, though the exact processes of lunar erosion are not fully understood.  (For instance, lunar dust levitates at sunrise due to static electricity.  It probably takes a very long time for this process to bury tracks, though.)  There may also have been meteor impacts on the Apollo sites that we don't know about; meteors are observed hitting the Moon from time to time, but you have to be very lucky to spot one, so it goes without saying that we don't see most of them.   I'm not sure, but the ALSEPs (Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Packages) may be visible, or at least fill a pixel; if they've got too much dust on them, though, it may be hard to make them out.  They probably don't cast much of a shadow, since they're fairly short, so I bet it wouldn't take much to camoflage them.  The LRVs carried by Apollos 15-18 may be visible.  The ascent stages may be visible too, but their locations are not known so it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.  (They were jettisoned in lunar orbit and allowed to impact the Moon, with the goal of triggering moonquakes for seismological studies of the Moon.  The impacts were detected by the ALSEPs, which functioned autonomously on the Moon for many years, powered by plutonium RTGs, until they were shut down due to funding constraints.  NASA has recently toyed with the idea of trying to switch them back on.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

I think they have a decent general idea where a couple are, because they succeeded in doing a commanded crash.  Apollo 11's ascent stage was not done that way, and was in orbit for quite a while after the mission.This is of course working from my increasingly dubious memory.Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think they have a decent general idea where a couple are, because they succeeded in doing a commanded crash.  Apollo 11's ascent stage was not done that way, and was in orbit for quite a while after the mission.This is of course working from my increasingly dubious memory.Wayne Posted by drwayne</DIV>Here is a site with locations for Apollo hardware - I posted this a couple of times on the old board, but I think it is the first time here:http://apollomaniacs.web.infoseek.co.jp/apollo/locationse.htm <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Here is a site with locations for Apollo hardware - I posted this a couple of times on the old board, but I think it is the first time here:http://apollomaniacs.web.infoseek.co.jp/apollo/locationse.htm Posted by drwayne</DIV>Last trivia before I get down to work - I remember seeing some posts back in the mid-80's on the Space list from Arpanet that seemed to imply that the poster thought the Apollo 11 Ascent stage was still in orbit.  I have never had someone tell me one way or another if that was true.  Lunar orbits tend to be very unstable due to MASCONsWayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

CalliArcale · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Last trivia before I get down to work - I remember seeing some posts back in the mid-80's on the Space list from Arpanet that seemed to imply that the poster thought the Apollo 11 Ascent stage was still in orbit.  I have never had someone tell me one way or another if that was true.  Lunar orbits tend to be very unstable due to MASCONsWayne Posted by drwayne</DIV>Interesting.  So they probably could find them!  Cool beans!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Interesting.  So they probably could find them!  Cool beans!  Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>I would be interested in seeing what remains of the crashed hardware for sure.I would also be very interested in seeing the ascent hardware that we put in heliocentric orbit.  Somehow, I doubt I will see that in my lifetime though....Wayne   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I would be interested in seeing what remains of the crashed hardware for sure.I would also be very interested in seeing the ascent hardware that we put in heliocentric orbit.  Somehow, I doubt I will see that in my lifetime though....Wayne  Posted by drwayne</DIV>One of them does come close to earth regularly, it was logged as a NEO. I'll have to see if I can find a note as to what the designation was...then we might be able to create an ephemeris for it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

silylene old · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> There is at least one thing that is there.  I believe it is Kitt Peak Arizona where a large telescope is coupled with a powerful laser beam.  This beam is shot out to the moon to reflect back and with simple timing give the moons distance to the Earth in inches! In order for the beam to actually be reflected back to the Earth there has to be something on the moon that is far more reflective than the moons natural surface.  This something is reflectors placed upon the moon at several of the Apollo landing spots by the Apollo astronauts.  ............. Posted by frodo1008</DIV>I know we have left those laser reflectors on the surface and the good science that we learned from using the timing data.  I really don't care much about arguing against the current woo woo crowd of conspiracists, denialists and luddites.  They will be forgotten in a generation or two.However, the reflectors are non-obvious artifacts on the surface.  And for that matter, the landing stages, moon buggies and their tracks, and the orbiting boosters are all also non-obvious artifacts.  (I define obvious as something someone would see with a well designed big scope or a gen 1 orbiter).I do think we should have left a mark on the lunar surface which remains visible thousands of years from now, when Apollo 11's memory and significance has diminished into a forgotten mythology, if even that.  Or some mark on the lunar surface visible to a future intelligent earthly species that simply says "WE WERE HERE".  It would have to be some artifact or sign which is much more obvious than we have left there so far.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>One of them does come close to earth regularly, it was logged as a NEO. I'll have to see if I can find a note as to what the designation was...then we might be able to create an ephemeris for it. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I knew there was an SIVB that drifts in and out of Earth's orbit from time to time, but I was not aware of anyone noting an ascent stage - but I could be forgetful, I think...Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

job1207 · Apr 8, 2008

When we go there next time, we should bring some C4 and a huge American Flag. Then they can arrange the C4 so that on Detonation it will carve out rows and such, forming a HUGE American Flag, visible from the Earth. How large would the Flag have to be?

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>When we go there next time, we should bring some C4 and a huge American Flag. Then they can arrange the C4 so that on Detonation it will carve out rows and such, forming a HUGE American Flag, visible from the Earth. How large would the Flag have to be? Posted by job1207</DIV>In this thought experiment, what constitutes visible?  Naked eye?  Binoculars?  Small Telescope?  Big Telescope?Wayne   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In this thought experiment, what constitutes visible?  Naked eye?  Binoculars?  Small Telescope?  Big Telescope?Wayne  Posted by drwayne</DIV>I remember a rule of thumb for unaided observation of lunar features at around 200 - 30 km.Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

TommyCzarnota · Apr 8, 2008

It looks to me like the spider formation on mercury WAS actually caused by the meteor that made the crater....If it was a large comet of ice...It could of hit mercury, then melted and formed river chanels as is flowed away..look at the Spider formation pics...could it be so...am I the first person to think of this....

drwayne · Apr 8, 2008

Welcome to the forum.It looks like you posted something that is off topic to the current thread of discussion, and is even off topic to the section in which it is posted.  Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

Kaguya / Selene images Apollo 11 landing site & spots disturbed regolith.

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