Scottb50;<br /> />>...That would be the crew of the Tranfer Vehicle, it makes sense that they don't stay at Mars....<<<br />I thought that was the whole problem, the round trip duration takes almost as long even if you try to return from Mars immediately. Therfore a transfer ship crew might not be practical.<br /><br /><br /> />>...but taking the whole thing down is ridiculous. The only think taken down should be what is needed on the surface, not something that will go down and then come back.<<<br />Sorry, I must not have been clear. I believe that anything sent down to the surface would become a permanent part of the settlement.<br /><br /><br /> />>I think the growth rate of a colony can only be defined as it occures, if you need more resources then you need a flexible system that can allow that to be taken, if less is needed you need a system that can take that into consideration.<<<br />We are saying the same thing. I agree completely.<br /><br /><br /> />>I would think the initial staffing for a Mars facility should be at least the 28 we have been discussing, I don't think every mission should add 28 more people or take all the initial 28 back, cargo will be the priority, not people. <<<br /><br />I agree with the initial staffing of 28, but if the settlement is to support very much non-settlement science, then many more than 28 people will be needed. As people can only be delivered every two years, then each successive year will need to supply 28 plus replacements for those that are returning to Earth or Moon bases. <br /><br />What cargo do you think will be returning to Earth/moon? Jewelry, metals, information, and ???
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I thought that was the whole problem, the round trip duration takes almost as long even if you try to return from Mars immediately. Therfore a transfer ship crew might not be practical.....<br /><br />I would think a roughly six month tour of duty would not be too stressful for a crew, especially if there is spin gravity in the transfer vehicle. For the most part I would think the crew would be similar to those on a crews ship. I would also think operating such a ship would require dedicated training and experience that would not be facilitated by simply letting the people being transported to take on the duties.<br /><br />The same would apply for Lunar transits, those operating the ship should be specific to that task rather than also being surface station personnel. Here it would be somewhat different with roughly a six day transit a crew would probably stay in LEO through 2-3 transits and then rotate back to the surface for time-off. <br /><br />Sorry, I must not have been clear. I believe that anything sent down to the surface would become a permanent part of the settlement......<br /><br />I would think cargo containers would make round trips as well as crew transfer Modules. The way I see it a Transit Vehicle would dock to an orbital Station in Mars orbit and Surface Transfer Vehicles would come up from the surface with returning passengers and cargo. The STV's would then return to the surface Station(s). <br /><br />I agree with the initial staffing of 28, but if the settlement is to support very much non-settlement science, then many more than 28 people will be needed. As people can only be delivered every two years, then each successive year will need to supply 28 plus replacements for those that are returning to Earth or Moon bases.....<br /><br />That's why I think the flexibility of a Modular Transit Vehicle makes the most sense, as a mission is planned the flexibility exists to carry more or less people, more of less cargo and Station expansion Modules. It may al <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
The nine life support systems (as defined by NASA) are:<br />Air Supply - biosphere, need to add a monitoring system.<br />Waste management - biosphere<br />Food production and delivery - biosphere and preserved from Earth.<br />Water supply - biosphere, Earth, Mars<br />Communications - TBA<br />Electricity - TBA - Solar or nuclear, that is the question?<br />Recreation - TBA<br />Temperature control - TBA<br />Transportation - Earth local (complete), Earth to LEO (to be contracted out), LEO to Mars (to be assembled in LEO), Mars orbit to Mars surface (lander), Mars Surface (TBA)<br /><br />I added:<br />Construction - TBA<br />Information storage/retrival/processing - moved to a subset of communications<br />Mining/refining/fabricating - TBA<br /><br />TBA - To Be Addressed<br /><br />I guess I will attempt to address Communications next.<br /><br /><br />Communications:<br /><br />Assumptions:<br />---All telemetry will be sent to a central communication center for immediate monitoring. <br />---All telemetry will be sent to Earth when Earth is available to the main dish.<br />---When not communicating with Earth, the main dish may be used for radio astronomy. <br />---No hardcopy reports will be produced.<br />---Information storage will be on a radiation hardened device and will be sent to Earth for backup and archival.<br /><br />Overview of processes:<br />---Telemetry data is communicated to central control area. <br />---Data is recorded and processed for trends. <br />---Trends are noted and trends that may become exceptions are monitored. <br />---Exceptions are dispatched to a repair team for correction. <br /><br />Chain of command: not addressed in this post. (someone else will need to address this issue)<br /><br />What needs to be communicated:<br />---telemetry:<br />------biosphere<br />---------How often is telemetry wanted? (timed interval or on exception)<br />---------Are parts of the biosphere autonimus (able to preprocess information and preform initial trouble shooting)?<br></br>
Scottb50:<br /> />>I would think a roughly six month tour of duty would not be too stressful for a crew, especially if there is spin gravity in the transfer vehicle. For the most part I would think the crew would be similar to those on a crews ship. I would also think operating such a ship would require dedicated training and experience that would not be facilitated by simply letting the people being transported to take on the duties.<<<br /><br />The way I understand the situation, once committed to a Mars trajectory, the trip takes 2 years. I think we were using 200 days as a one-way trip.
Temperature control.<br /><br />Assumptions:<br />---The surface of Mars can be utilized as a heat sink.<br />---Solar radiation will be the major heat source unless a nuclear reactor is available.<br />---An insulating material will need to be developed, on Mars, earily in the settlement cycle.<br /><br />Overview of processes:<br />The heat from mechanical and biological processes will be one of the primary heat sources for the colony. To properly utilize this distributed heat source a good air handling system will be needed, along with the ability to move air from any compartment to any-other compartment. Multiple air flow patterns will need to be developed so that changing conditions on Mars will not adversly effect the settlement.<br /><br />Equipment:<br />---Temperature <br />------Themostats<br />------Humidity control<br /><br />---Air movement<br />------Fans (2 for each module)<br />------Ducting<br /><br />Power/weight/cost info:<br />---Motors<br />------1Kw/hp<br />------36.3 Kg/Hp<br />------$200/hp<br /><br />---dehumidifiers/humidifiers<br />------2Kw/ton<br />------60 Kg/ton<br />------$2000/ton<br />------1/2 inch pipe to supply water<br />------1/2 inch pipe to send water to grey water recycling.
Transportation - Mars Surface <br /><br />Assumptions:<br />---Some type of chemical fuel will be manufactured on Mars.<br /><br />Overview of processes: <br />Some method of moving about the surface of Mars is required. Several types of transport will be required, including Heavy transport, personal transport, short and long distance.<br /><br />Vehicle types:<br />---Hydrogen filled Balloon type transportation<br />------Due to the thin atmosphere, most likely isn't feasable for heavy lift.<br />------Could be solar powered and require no chemical fuel.<br />------slow (could use rocket type engines for additional speed)<br />------cheap to manufacture<br />------light weight<br />------safe (hydrogen doesn't burn in a CO2 atmosphere, crashes slowly)<br />------effect of wind is larger than other types of transportation.<br />------requires a method to add/remove hydrogen from balloon to adjust lift capacity.<br />------Low maintenance (electric motors, propellers and pump)<br />------Unlimited range<br /><br />---Rocket powered gliders<br />------Lifts off like a rocket, glides to destination.<br />------Requires landing strip at destination.<br />------fast<br />------Launch stresses on long/large wings<br />------Effect of wind is minor.<br />------Higher maintenance (rocket motor and normal air plane maintenance)<br />------Range limited by altitude and rocket propellent.<br />------Full range of lift capability<br /><br />---Rovers/haulers<br />------Rolls on ground<br />------requires reasonably smooth/level surface for safe travel.<br />------Moderate speed<br />------Roads recommended<br />------Maintenance similar to modern automobile.<br />------uneffected by wind<br />------Fuel may be electric, chemical or both.<br />------Range limited by fuel.<br />------Full range of carrying capacity
The round trip is in the neighborhood of 900 days, no matter how long the transit takes. Faster transits give you more time at Mars, but the total round trip is only a little bit less.<br /><br />Note that the folks returning from the first cycle will be in transit from Mars before the second cycle leaves Earth. (Um IIRC, I need to check that, I'm 95% sure, will check tonight)<br /><br />The 200 days was selected as a compromise between dV (prop mass) and on-board supplies (food and water).<br /><br />The reason we're going to all the trouble to do a spin-g ship is to deliver healthy settlers.<br /><br />I had not thought about the crew being split into ship's crew and settlers simply because they can't take the ship back sooner anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
I had a chance to talk to my brother this weekend and he said that his gold mine has a total of about 40 people to cover 24x7. That would cover mining, refining and smelting to create the gold button.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet....<br /><br />What kind of weapons are we bringing?<br /><br />1) We need some kind of defense on the transit / orbital ship.<br /><br />2) We need something for colonists to use outside of their habitats on the surface.<br /><br />3) We need something that can be 'safely' used inside their habitats.<br /><br /><br />I would imagine a nice array of modified cruise missles (mini-nukes??) would get the job done for the transit ship.<br /><br />Tasers would probably work for in-habitat needs.<br /><br />Not really sure what would be appropriately effective outdoors.<br /><br /><br />I know... it sounds silly - but I'm serious.
In the short term, I would think nothing. <br /><br />When we start it is unlikely that there will be many other people proceeding us. On Mars there are no natural enemies except cold and lack of O2. For those we will bring heat and LOX.<br /><br />In the long term, it will be necessary to adapt to the situation.
The heat from mechanical and biological processes will be one of the primary heat sources for the colony. To properly utilize this distributed heat source a good air handling system will be needed, along with the ability to move air from any compartment to any-other compartment. Multiple air flow patterns will need to be developed so that changing conditions on Mars will not adversly effect the settlement......<br /><br />My thinking is each Module of a facility should have it's own self contained redundant environmental system. Each Module should have it's own hatchs and the ability to isolate itself if a situation occures in another part of the facility. Similar to the compartmentalization on submarines.<br /><br />What I have in mind is the same Unit I have brought up for the transit and orbital vehicles and facilities. A self contained unit that plugs into existing stations in a Module, minimum would be two units and provisions would be provided for two or more additional Units as the system is developed. Each Unit would consist of a self-contained environmental system and a self contained electrical generating system. The Units would connect to two independent busses allowing power to be routed to other Modules, or between busses if needed, control of all the units in a facility would be conducted from a central location, but individual Units could be controlled from the unit itself if required.<br /><br />Input to the Units would be water, electricity from solar arrays, liquid Nitrogen and environmental air within the Module itself.<br /><br />Environmental control:<br /><br />Air is ducted into a dual chamber condenser, the first at 0 degrees F the second at -50F, controlled by liquid Nitrogen. The first condenser removes water vapor and the second Carbon Dioxide. Air is then ducted to the electrical system to provide cooling as well as warming the air, cold air can be bypassed if cooling is needed and electrical heaters can add more heat if that is required. Fans w <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
There are no natural enemies that we know of... but is it out of the question there could be something below the surface? I would assume a good portion of any Mars colony will involve digging holes, building habitats underground, etc.. So, while I can't imagine the exact scenario where some critter would be bothering our colonists - it doesn't seem illogical to prepare a little... just in case.<br /><br />Didn't the first Moon astronauts bring a gun or something? Would a gun even work on Mars/Moon?<br /><br />With respect to the weapons on the spacecraft - I'm thinking more along the lines of defense from other humans. By the time we are advanced enough to attempt a colony, other nations or groups of nations or private companies (???) might also be able to make trips to the planet as well. Possibly a "Wild West" type of environment might develop and in that case, I see nothing wrong with having the most and biggest guns... there would be a lot invested to protect. This could also apply to the need for some form of defense outside the colony.<br /><br />And of course, if any evil aliens happened to show up 
Just have mars a demilitarised planet, no weapons of any kind allowed except for non lethal self defence weaponry incase some colonist goes crazy or something.
Ideally, I think that we should have more than one ship. If we did, we could launch every 6 months, taking new people, supplies, etc. Then, on the return trip, bring back those who need to return to earth, as well as cargo. This creates a continuous cycle, which, in turn would help in sustainability of the colony. I also agree, however, that weapons should not be necessary for at least the first mission or two. After that, we may well need to plan for a "police force" of some sort.<br /><br />On a slightly different angle, in what way will Mars be "bound" or "beholden" to Earth. We've all seen the sci-fi stories of Mars wanting to be free to govern itself. Have we thought of how to handle this? I know it's still well in the future, but these are issues that need to be addressed up front. <br /><br />Just my 2 cents.<br /><br />Rae
Overview of processes:<br />Some method of moving about the surface of Mars is required. Several types of transport will be required, including Heavy transport, personal transport, short and long distance.....<br /><br />I have meantioned before that the same vehicle used for accessing orbital facilities could be used for surface transportation. What I see is a simple platform that has fittings to attach Cargo/Personnel Modules as well as engines. A removable heat shield would be used when accessing orbit, but would be removed for surface use. In surface operation the vehicle could operate in two ways, vectored thrust for fairly short transits, as well as manuevering, and ballistic jumps for longer trips.<br /><br />Here I get back to my feeling we need to be using Hydrogen and Oxygen as propellant, even if we have to transport it from Earth until supply can be assured on Mars. Such a vehicle would also be usable on the Moon and for accessing asteroids, where propellant access is not available anyway and it would have to be carried from Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Phaze:<br /> />> ...but is it out of the question there could be something below the surface?<<<br />I'm not sure we will find any Horta until we reach the 100th level. And then she will only be a problem if we bother the silicon nodules.<br /><br /> />>Possibly a "Wild West" type of environment might develop and in that case, I see nothing wrong with having the most and biggest guns...<<<br />I completely agree, but we will have to adapt to that situation when it arises.<br /><br /><br />Scottb50:<br /> />>My thinking is each Module of a facility should have it's own self contained redundant environmental system. Each Module should have it's own hatchs and the ability to isolate itself if a situation occures in another part of the facility. Similar to the compartmentalization on submarines. <<<br /><br />We agree on so many things. The ability to isolate each compartment is absolutely necessary for all the same reasons.<br /><br /> />>What I have in mind is the same Unit I have brought up for the transit and orbital vehicles and facilities. A self contained unit that plugs into existing stations in a Module, minimum would be two units and provisions would be provided for two or more additional Units as the system is developed. Each Unit would consist of a self-contained environmental system and a self contained electrical generating system. The Units would connect to two independent busses allowing power to be routed to other Modules, or between busses if needed, control of all the units in a facility would be conducted from a central location, but individual Units could be controlled from the unit itself if required. <<<br /><br />I would think that the backup electrical systems would be isolated to each module, but the primary electrical system would be communial. The rudundent busses idea is good.<br /><br /> />>I have meantioned before that the same vehicle used for accessing orbital facilities could be used for surface transportat
I would think that the backup electrical systems would be isolated to each module, but the primary electrical system would be communial. The rudundent busses idea is good....<br /><br />What I have in mind are two completely separate electrical systems in every Module that can tie into the systems in any other Module. Failure of either system has no effect on the other as they are not tied together, except in an emergency. Rather than a primary and backup system you have an A Bus and a B Bus that are completely isolated from one another. With the Modular design when you mate two Modules you also connect the electrical, communication and services, this allows any Module to access stored fluids or gasses or utilize electrical power from any other Module it is docked to as well as allowing the whole assembly to be operated from a central location, or outlying locations as needed. With this system the more Modules you add the more redunancy you have, the more complex the Modules role in the station the more generating units you add.<br /><br />The main goal is to make everything as simple and redundant as possible and also facilitate the production of as many Units as possible to lower overall costs. I see no reason the same concept and Modules can't be used on LEO Orbiters, Transit Vehicles, Mars and Lunar Orbiters and Mars and Lunar Surface Facilities as well as asteroid and comet exploration Vehicles. The only difference between them is how you configure the Modules internally.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
I like it. How can we handle the changes in configuration? For example, they are configured as a ring for interplanetary travel, then configured as a circle when landed on a planet. <br /><br />Offhand it would seem the same, but in reality they are different. Note that when configured for interplanetary travel, "gravity" is away from the center of the ship, therefor the "bottom" of the habitat is on the outside of the ship, and the passage to the next habitat is "up". <br /><br />No think about the ring on the planets surface, "down" is toward the center of the planet, and the passage to the next habitat is to the right or left.<br /><br />Can you post some drawings?
No think about the ring on the planets surface, "down" is toward the center of the planet, and the passage to the next habitat is to the right or left....<br /><br />If you look at the drawings I have made you see four Docking Adapters around the circumference of a Segment, eight in a two Segment Module, and one at either end of a Module. If orientation is needed you simply dock to the applicable Adapters.<br /><br />As I see it the Modules being used on the surface would be those at the ends of the ring and would be configured with a floor and standard work-stations, in route they would be used for crew and passenger facilities with reduced gravity, on the surface they would be used as Station Elements with the floor oriented downward. <br /><br />Offhand it would seem the same, but in reality they are different. Note that when configured for interplanetary travel, "gravity" is away from the center of the ship, therefor the "bottom" of the habitat is on the outside of the ship, and the passage to the next habitat is "up"......<br /><br />It could be either way, if you use a double ring, you would have two Modules connected end to end. They would still be connected two the spoke Modules that connect to the Hub Modules. Looking at it as a single Ring you would have four Modules with gravity and you would have to climb through a hatch into the spoke Modules, as you got closer to the Hub Module gravity would be reduced and the Hub would be at zero gravity. Going to another Gravity Module you would have to pull yourself down to a point the gravity in the Module takes over and then climb down ito the Module.<br /><br />Can you post some drawings?<br /><br />I already posted one that leaves out some of the details of the docking system, I want to protect my ideas and can't afford filling patents and such at this time. The basic idea is a Module, made of two identical Segments that attach over a single piece Tube, each Segment has the same Adapter at each end and four smaller version <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Scottb50:<br />Sorry, I didn't pay attention to who posted the drawings. I made some changes, your ship requires two different types of internal configurations. The drawing doesn't show a tube system to connect all the modules together, so the different crews can co-mingle. <br /><br />My drawing isn't as good as yours. But here goes.....<br /><br />
What is the crosshatched area, trusses? What my drawing shows is Modules connecting the end Modules to the Hub. This would allow people to migrate between Modules as well as being used for cargo and water storage, when an inner Module is used, like in the Gravity Modules.<br /><br />As for using one of the Modules as a greenhouse I don't see the Cycler needing one, I can see one on the surface of Mars, but enroute there would not be enough time to grow much and the weight of hydroponics would probablly be a lot more than that of stored supplies. I suppose if the Cycler is manned continuously and a greenhouse can be maintained it might be useful beyond the first three or four missions though. If you consider each of the pictured Modules to be 60x30 feet that would be plenty of room for a green house without designing a completely different structure, it would also attach to the other Modules and integrate into the whole system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Scottb50:<br /> />>What is the crosshatched area, trusses?<<<br />Yes.<br /><br /> />>As for using one of the Modules as a greenhouse I don't see the Cycler needing one,....<<<br />Most crops are ready to harvest in 90 - 120 days. That way the settlers know that they have a reliable food source before they land on Mars. I would consider it to be one of the go/nogo requirements. That way each module is completely self contained for the trip to Mars. Once on Mars the modules are joined at the ends. During the journey, they would be joined at the top. <br /><br />I would think we would want the cargo modules as close to the central rocket as possible. It would make the system easier to spin.
I don't see the facination with trusses. If you need to carry equipment and supplies why not use the containers as structural members instead of adding even more mass to the vehicle by using trusses?<br /><br />As for concentrating the mass at the hub I don't see that as much of a concern, if nothing else it would require extra mass for the trusses. The truss also does not allow travel between the end Modules, unless you add even more mass with a tunnel, which pretty much accomplishes the same thing I want to do with Modules. Another point is my design uses two basic components, the identical Segments that connect together over the single piece tube. Adding trusses just complicates thing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
I started working on another summary but I got lost on the electrical system. Here is what I have so far. I will keep working and have more detail by Friday. If someone here knows anything about power distribution equipment, I need help.<br /><br />***Guess what, long post***<br /><br />Colonization systems<br /><br />A settlement requires a number of subsystems in order to be able to survive between supply shipments. The costs associated with the operating the settlement is inversely proportional to its ability to sustain itself, but the costs of setting up the settlement is directly proportional to its ability to sustain itself.<br /><br />NASA defines the nine required subsystems for a successful settlement as:<br />Electricity, Communications, Air Supply, Food production and delivery, Recreation, Temperature control, Transportation, Waste management, and Water supply. <br /><br />MISSION:<br />Mars Settlement Supports Mars Science; the more secure the people are in their ability to sustain the settlement, the more Science they can afford to do.<br />=============================================================<br />OBJECTIVES:<br />The ultimate objective is to Settle Mars. <br />The initial objective is to encamp as many people as possible on Mars. <br />Their primary job will be to stay alive. <br />Their secondary job will be to maximize the productivity of the chosen industries. <br />Their tertiary job will be to enable return trips for those who want to go back to Earth or the Moon. <br />Once those needs are reasonably secure, their job will be to do Science. <br /><br />The primary objective for Spaceships, especially manned craft, is to keep people alive. <br /><br />The two other major categories of equipment are Habitats and Factories. <br />Habitats should be amply sized and built to last for decades. <br />Factories must see continuous improvement, whether by on-site enhancements by the settlers, or by the delivery of new and larger equipment. <br /><br />Utilization of loc
Here is an update with two systems detailed. It appears this thread has run its course. See ya all on the next thread........LOOOOOONG post.<br /><br />Colonization systems<br /><br />A settlement requires a number of subsystems in order to be able to survive between supply shipments. The costs associated with the operating the settlement is inversely proportional to its ability to sustain itself, but the costs of setting up the settlement is directly proportional to its ability to sustain itself.<br /><br />NASA defines the nine required subsystems for a successful settlement as:<br />Electricity, Communications, Air Supply, Food production and delivery, Recreation, Temperature control, Transportation, Waste management, and Water supply. <br /><br />MISSION:<br />Mars Settlement Supports Mars Science; the more secure the people are in their ability to sustain the settlement, the more Science they can afford to do.<br />=============================================================<br />OBJECTIVES:<br />The ultimate objective is to Settle Mars. <br />The initial objective is to encamp as many people as possible on Mars. <br />Their primary job will be to stay alive. <br />Their secondary job will be to maximize the productivity of the chosen industries. <br />Their tertiary job will be to enable return trips for those who want to go back to Earth or the Moon. <br />Once those needs are reasonably secure, their job will be to do Science. <br /><br />The primary objective for Spaceships, especially manned craft, is to keep people alive. <br /><br />The two other major categories of equipment are Habitats and Factories. <br />Habitats should be amply sized and built to last for decades. <br />Factories must see continuous improvement, whether by on-site enhancements by the settlers, or by the delivery of new and larger equipment. <br /><br />Utilization of local resources should be maximized, but realistic goals for the extraction and application of local resources must be set as well. <br />=
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