Lunar Astronauts drillin core samples

[willpittenger]

During Apollo, some of the astronauts had problems drilling core samples. First, I think the astronauts did not have enough weight on the Moon to push down on the drill effectively. Second, the bit bound up. This made the core very hard to pull up.<br /><br />How can Orion astronauts solve that problem? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

In my humble experience with drilling and cutting tools, binding is usually cause by a combination of two problems. The first is when the curf (the space actually cut out by the tool) is too narrow and the edges of your blade (or drill bit) rub against the edges of your cut. The second is when material chewed up by the cutting edges remain inside the cut. This is why drill bits are spiralled and there is space between the teeth on a saw. Both of these problems cause a fatal increase in the amount of friction.<br /><br />If you can fix these problems, you'll have a good core sampling tool. If I were designing this, I'd make the cutting teeth wider than the thickness of the tube, or offset the teeth to each side as in a saw. I'd also cut about six vertical slots in the cutting edge to allow the grit generated to have a little more room to move.<br /><br />Then you need to push that grit out of the cutting hole. You might even be able to do that with a little compressed gas like nitrogen. On earth we usually use water, or occasionally oil to push out the grit and keep the tool cool. The gas could fill this need on a new lunar drill.<br /><br />Having said this, I know that NASA has been developing new drilling and core sampling tools design for the Moon and Mars. They may well have some better ideas... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[halman]

willpittenger,<br /><br />The core samples drilled during the Apollo missions were merely an attempt to find out what soil conditions were like a few feet below the surface. The cores were taken with a hollow cylinder that had a handle welded to one end, and hardly any cutting teeth, as I recall. If a rock was encountered, there was no way to cut through it, and there was no way to remove the partial core and start over again, I think.<br /><br />When we return to the Moon, I certainly hope that we will do better than having an astronaut driving the core sampler. To do this kind of science justice, we will need a drilling rig which can spin the pipe while pushing it down, and several sections of pipe. Before too much time elapses, we should land a full blown drilling rig in one of the maria so that we can pull up samples from at least a kilometer down.<br /><br />By using such a technique, in combination with survey charges detonated over wide distances, and monitored by seismographs, we can develop a model of the interior of the Moon, and what its composition is at different depths. I am most anxious for a survey of the lunar seas to be performed, as the geology is strongly indicative of material from deep within the Moon welling up onto the surface. If this is the case, then heavy elements may be present close to the surface in the maria. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[3488]

Yes I too wouod love to see some deep lunar core samples from many different<br />locations.<br /><br />This would tell us much about the selenolgical (geological) history of the moon<br />as well as perhaps recorded evindence of solar activity in the very distant past & the previous environments <br />our solar system has experienced as it orbits the galactic centre <br />every 225 million years (deep regolith).<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Suppose the core is under pressure under the surface and swells inside and outside the bit when released. Could that jam it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Suppose the core is under pressure under the surface and swells inside and outside the bit when released. Could that jam it?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />In theory. But I would assume (dangerous to assume) that that would be more indicative of IO and not our Moon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

The design of a drilling rig (like oil drilling rigs) like halman suggested should solve most binding problems <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

One of the engineering challenges is that all Earth-bound drilling rigs use water to cool the drill head and push the chewed up material out of the hole. Both of these problems will need a solution for effective lunar and martian core sampling rigs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[3488]

Compressed gas??<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[halman]

bpfeifer,<br /><br />Water is used because it is plentiful and cheap. Actually, I believe that water is mixed with something else to create what is called 'drilling mud', which is supposed to lubricate the bit, carry off the tailings, and line the walls of the hole. A substitute material could be made from petroleum derivatives, perhaps, or silicon.<br /><br />This is an example of the benefits of exploration, the learning required to do new things. Figuring out how to do things in new and strange environments leads to discoveries of all kinds, some of which will have bearing on the way that we do things here on Earth. Just as the microprocessor was a result of having to do something in a new environment, which ended up having previously unimagined applications here on Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[docm]

It's a start....<br /><br />NASA testing a prototype low power drill to be used on the moon or Mars (image link)<br /><br />6-foot deep hole made by the drill (image link) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[halman]

docm,<br /><br />Yeah, I guess. It looks like the test site was on ice, at least that is the impression that I get from the image taken of the hole. Drilling into ice is much different than drilling into soil, especially rocky soil.<br /><br />What I would like to see would be an autonomous drilling robot, which is capable of retrieving cores from at least 5 meters in depth. This robot would be moved from one location to another by some means, so that it could be utilized extensively, which would help to justify the cost. Having a crew of roughnecks devoted to drilling cores would be extremely expensive, so figuring out where the best locations for deep cores to be drilled would save considerable money over blind siting.<br /><br />We need to find out if minerals on the Moon occur in seams, like they do on Earth, or if they are randomly distributed. This will have a big impact on how we go about extracting those minerals, whether by open pit mining, or tunneling. Tunneling offers the protection of being shielded from radiation and incoming rocks, as well as allowing pressurization of sections of the tunnels, which would allow the miners to live close to their work.<br /><br />Open pit mining is generally considered the cheapest way to extract minerals on Earth, but it requires moving a lot of material. Because of the equipment requirements, and the energy needed to operate that equipment, open pit mining on the Moon may be impractical. Developing tunneling technology on the Moon will help us when we decide to tackle Mercury, which is almost certain to be mined heavily at some point in the future. Digging a tunnel that corkscrews into the ground may be the quickest way to establish a base which is shielded from the Sun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Developing tunneling technology on the Moon will help us when we decide to tackle Mercury, which is almost certain to be mined heavily at some point in the future. Digging a tunnel that corkscrews into the ground may be the quickest way to establish a base which is shielded from the Sun.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Plus, you could seal off the opening and pressurize the interior (unless there are cracks leading to the surface somewhere). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>