Mars Citizenship Program

[nibb31]

The problem is, what's the point ?<br /><br />It seems that some people advocate this idea of spending the rest of their lives in hab modules and EVA suits just for the coolness factor. Other than coolness, what would be a real incentive to colonize another planet?<br /><br />I can see the point of research facilities, like antarctic bases, but we really don't know what unique resources await us on the Moon or on Mars. <br /><br />Even for H3, the feasability of ever needing quantities large enough to justify a colony of several hundred people on the Moon is dubious.<br /><br />ISRU sounds like a lot of fun, but it has no track record. Would you bet the lives of your colonists on unproven technology? What if your magic ISRU machines got clogged up with dust after 6 months? Or what if all your seals became porous because of the cold or some unexpected chemical conditions?<br /><br />We are already having lots of problems building a semi-sustainable base in LEO. How many replacement air conditioning units have need to be shipped up to the ISS already? And some people say that the ISS is useless and we should go straight to 100 people Mars colonies! It really seems unrealistic to me.<br /><br />Before building a colony, you want a small research facility to find out if building a colony is feasible or not. You need to ISRU techniques on a small scale before even thinking about a colony. Just like the ISS experience is invaluable about learning to overcome the problems of creating a sustainable life supporting environment in space. <br /><br />In the past, few people chose colonization just because it was cool to be a pioneer. They were either oppressed, or poor and miserable, or simply convicts or slaves shipped off by force. It was a either hope for a better life or because they had no choice.<br /><br />I certainly dont thing that living in a self sustaining hab module and EVA suits is a particularly bright future for my children, even if it seems cool to live in a Sci-Fi movie.

 

[j05h]

> I certainly dont thing that living in a self sustaining hab module and EVA suits is a particularly bright future for my children, even if it seems cool to live in a Sci-Fi movie.<br /><br />I highly recommend reading the Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy if you think we're talking about living in tin cans. "Tin Can Syndrome" can be considered a lack of imagination on the poster's part. We can build domes, greenhouses, barrel vaults and sandbag igloos. We can live under Elysium's ice (just melt it) or in lava tubes, we can burrow into mesas and live under Marinaris' walls. To say that even the first colonists on Mars will be spam in a can is showing a distinct lack of vision on the subject.<br /><br />Once you have people on Mars, living there will prove, IMHO, siginificantly easier than ISS or other stations. Mars has much about it that is familiar, and we can use a lot of tools and techniques straight from Earth. Sure, there is differences but that is what development cures. <br /><br />Sign me up.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[nibb31]

Ok, so how many decades will it take for a couple of dozen people to build those domes and greenhouses ?<br /><br />Even if the goal is to build dome cities and underground complexes, that still doesn't give you a very broad horizon. Imagine living the rest of your life in something as large as a shopping mall.<br /><br />And even then, look at how long it takes to build something like the Chunnel, or the Millenium dome, or an airport on Earth. Now add the following factors:<br /><br />- You can only move around in EVA suits for limited periods of time.<br />- You don't know much about the very particular geology of the planet.<br />- You have no experience of building large structures in low G.<br />- For each new material that you want to use, you have to invent new processes for ISRU production. You'll need local supplies for things like steel, cement, glass, rubber... <br />- You'll need to design, build and maintain the machinery for producing all that stuff.<br />- You know nothing about sismical activity on mars<br />- You know nothing about the weather on mars<br />- You have no record of durabilty of your locally produced construction materials in such a hostile environment (cold, dust abrasion, chemical reactions)<br />- Before you're able to do any of this, your highest priority will be mainly fighting for survival: food, water, oxygen and fighting the elements.<br /><br />Believe me, it will take several generations of tin can dwellers before you get your Mars Superdome. It really is not as easy as it looks.

 

[tomnackid]

I don't see how a one way trip is in any way cheaper. The amount of equipment, supplies and most importantly technical know how needed to build a self sufficient colony on mars would easily exceed the amount of equipment needed for a round trip exploratory mission. Right now we have ABSOLUTELY NO TEChNOLOGY for keeping people alive and healthy for long periods of time in a sealed environment. The closest we have are Russian long term Closed Ecology Life Support System experiments and nuclear submarines--both of which are only a open hatch away from fresh air in an emergency. Both also deal with significant health issues even after only a few months--especially with respect to respiratory problems. By the time someone comes up with a way to keep people alive in closed environments for decades at a time I am sure mars will have already been explored by round trip missions or rotating mars base crews. Starting a base maned by rotating crews, each crew bringing new supplies and making upgrades in the recycling systems is how a mars colony will be founded. Eventually as the technology progresses a crew member or two will request not to be rotated back to earth and bam! There you have your first mars "colonist".

 

[qso1]

ldyaidan:<br />I also don't see that it would have to be a one way trip. I do think colonists would need to sign on for a minimum of 5-10 years, however. Technology won't stand still just because we've launched the colonists. If anything, it will give momentum to find cheaper, faster access. I think it's a great idea. However, I'd recommend a starting a lunar colony this way first.<br /><br />Me:<br />Makes much more sense to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"My interest in this is purely in seeing what kind of ideas are presently emerging as the result of private industries growing interest in human spaceflight."</font><br /><br />That pretty much matches my attitude. The chances of me getting to go are slim...unless it happens rather quickly. If they wait too much longer I'll be too old to survive the trip to LEO <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[qso1]

I'll be too old to survive the van trip to the pad! LOL. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[craig42]

We should build colonies nearby where we can quickly get the colonists back home if there's an emergency. That way we can devlop the technology through trial and error. <br /><br />Then we can learn from our mistakes and do the whole thing again on Mars, Phobos, Europaad infintium.<br /> <br />Of course we still don't know if Martian gravity is strong enough to keep a human healthy.

 

[Swampcat]

As has been mentioned by others, one of the things that I would like to see is more research on closed loop life support systems as well as Earthbound trial runs of Mars Habitats and whatever else that might be needed for a settlement on Mars.<br /><br />There are and have been some efforts along these lines (Devon Island, the Biosphere project), but to my knowledge there has been no full scale test to prove out most of the technology that would be needed by Mars settlers. It would certainly be wise to do as much development and testing of this technology here on Earth before lives depend on its use on Mars.<br /><br />Granted, the conditions on Mars cannot be perfectly duplicated on Earth, but certainly a lot of issues that would confront the first Mars settlers could be emulated at some relatively remote location on Earth. With proper planning and creativity it should be possible to operate an analog mission to Mars and work through the trial and error process without it becoming a life or death situation for those involved. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[kdavis007]

Hell I go...

 

[john_316]

What about all that 1/3 Martian gravity? Isnt that gonna kill you in like 48 months after you arrive? <br /><br />Thats what the greys told me... I figure they wouldn't lie!<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[quasar2]

i don`t think any human mars effort should attempt a return to earth`s surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[quasar2]

the reason i say this w/such finality is that in a program of such a magnitude, there would be alternatives. one alternative would be a return to the Lunar Vicinity. or @least a launch to Phobos, which i think should also be included in such an undertaking. i don`t think Marscrew should be left entirely w/o launch facilities, that certainly would be criminal. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[revolutionary]

I would happily volunteer for this mission and in doing so, secure my place in the history books.

 

[adzel_3000]

Its not so much whether one would want to go as it is whether a Mars colony of this sort might not be a genetic dead-end for a given individual. <br /><br />Pioneering suggests a colony and a colony suggests both sustainability and propagation of the original population.<br /><br />Can humans gestate and carry babies full term in a 0.38 gee environment? Who wants to go first and who wants to risk their child?<br /><br />This is an important question.<br /><br />A3K

 

[barrykirk]

Well, perhaps Harry the hampster can take the risk with his gene pool. That experiment could be done relativly<br />cheap at the ISS.

 

[n_kitson]

The "risk their child" situation has consequences in today's litiginous world. Look at the wonderful mass of lawsuits Merck is facing. Imagine the lawsuits from the colonists:<br /><br />"Yes, you told us it was a one way trip. Yes, you told us it was dangerous and our kids would be mutants, but you never told us that there are no Starbucks. You should never have given us the choice to make in the first place. Now you'll have to pay our families $50 billion in a class-action lawsuit and mount a rescue effort and invent and build special low-grav areas for our mutant kids to live in..."

 

[qso1]

kraken:<br />Seems a very inefficient and expensive idea.<br /><br />Me:<br />Seems that not having the capability to return is more inefficient. At some point, the colonists may wish to engage in trade with Earth. I have yet to see someone explain how the people who are proposing this are able to send a fairly hefty infrastructure to Mars and yet not be able to bring the people back. Thats like running a race and stopping 3/4 of the way from the finish line.<br /><br />Bottom line, even if this non return idea is adapted...if we progress at all, eventually we will have the means to send subsequent colonists and have a two way capability. In that sense it could work but I suspect people are going to say if its that difficult to provide for a means to return people, maybe we should wait till we are able to. I agree we already proved we can stick a flag in the ground at Mars but when America was discovered and subsequently settled, the settlers eventually could go back from where they came but more importantly, the destination did not require the type of adaptation humans will have to make on Mars.<br /><br />You will never be able to leave your habitat without donning an EMU. Eventually, folks are gonna want to breath air...get fresh air as it were. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Kraken:<br />Can you imagine how much it would cost to have the government continueously sending people back and forth?<br /><br />Me:<br />Indeed it would be very expensive. But first off, colonizing Mars is something best left to private enterprise. You will never convince the government to send people on a one way trip anyway. Private enterprise should be able to provide less expensive ways to do mars colonization that includes return capabilities. If P.E. is not up to the task, then maybe its simply beyond our present or near term projected technical capability. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>