Mars Methane Mention at ESA Mars Express Press Conference

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Dusts or sand composed of certain metal oxides are required as a catalyst."</font><br /><br />An area could be sprayed with artificial "Mars dust". But then why not just do the whole experiment in the lab under controlled conditions? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">But then why not just do the whole experiment in the lab under controlled conditions? </font><br />I agree completely. Antarctica was a hypothetical question posed to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

I can't wait for the Phoenix lander to get to Mars with its atomic force microscope. When it digs down into the frozen ice near Mars' north pole and images individual grains and crystals, the same group that looks at Mars rocks and sees fossils will be looking for microscopic fossils and bacteria. The difference is, this time I'll be looking too!<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

Some iron deposits exist in at least some locations in Antarctica. Perhaps tests for methane can be performed there.<br /> I found this after doing a web search on Antarctica:<br /><br />Blood Falls.<br />"In a landscape of muted grays, subtle browns, and piercing whites, the huge red markings on an outcrop of the Taylor Glacier stand out mysteriously - like streaks of blood. <br />"Scientists think that iron seeping from an ancient lake deposit buried beneath Taylor Glacier is responsible for the coloration. The red has earned the icy protrusion in the Lake Bonney basin the name of Blood Falls."<br />http://huey.colorado.edu/77DegreesSouth/spooky3.html<br /><br /><br /> - Bob Clark<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Why do you insist on field experiments in Antartica? It would be much better to use a controlled environment in the lab that much more accurately reflected conditions on Mars and that could be manupulated to test the effect of changes in light, water vapor, dust elements, etc.<br /><br />The only reason to study the effect in Antartica would be if you were interested in studying the effect in Antartica -- not on Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

This solar system is made of the same stuff; therefore, terrestrial are most definitely applicable to extraterrestrial environments. I thought you were smarter than that.

 

[exoscientist]

I think silylene already quoted experiments that showed this can happen in the lab.<br /> If the methane were shown to be produced naturally on Earth, then that would provide a strong impetus to support the idea this were a legitimate explanation of the methane on Mars. <br /> If it did not arise naturally in the situations hypothesized on Earth, this wouldn't prove that it couldn't occur on Mars. But you would have to understand why it didn't arise under the cited conditions and suggest why the same reasons preventing its formation didn't also apply to Mars.<br /><br /><br /> - Bob <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Why use Antarctica rather than a laboratory set up? You don't, you use both. The laboratory allows to study simple controlled conditions. The real world lets you study what happens when things are much more complex.<br /><br />Antarctica has been widely used as a Mars analogue, for weathering hydrology, glaciology, and microbiology. I have a former colleague down there right know looking at jarosite in weathered rocks.<br /><br />There are many other places on earth that have been used as Mars analogues, because they have some conditions that resemble those on Mars or some processes that mimic Martian ones. Examples include Antarctic oases, the Atacama, and Rio Tinto.<br /><br />The Antarctic oases are cold, dry, but with ephemeral moisture, glaciers are cold based and the lakes are hypersaline with exotic, low temperature salts.<br /><br />The Atacama is extremely dry, has very oxidising and saline soil, groundwater driven landscapes, and very slow landscape evolution. <br /><br />Rio Tinto has extremely acid waters, extensive oxidised iron species, and a microbiology that trives in these conditions.<br /><br />There are many other areas too - central Australia, Devon island, the Columbia Plateau. Nambia, and the Sahara.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"If the methane were shown to be produced naturally on Earth, then that would provide a strong impetus to support the idea this were a legitimate explanation of the methane on Mars."</font><br /><br /><br />You have a point, but I think there is also a counter argument. If experiments show that UV irradiated CO2 and H2O in the presence of certain catalysts yields methane, the next job it to see how this translates to Mars. Find what potential catalysts are present, isolate the areas of methane production looking for daily variations, and see how all the pieces fit together.<br /><br />I think the task on Mars remains the same regardless of what is discovered in studying Antartica. That is why I see Antartica as a non factor in this case.I think the impetus is already there for investigating nonbiological photogenesis of methane on Mars. The main ingredients are present on Mars: CO2, H2O, UV light, and potential catalysts. And the product of the proposed reaction is there: methane. I don't see that any additional evidence from Antarctica adds to -- or detracts from -- the case for photogenesis of methane on Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Methanogens have been reported from Antarctica already, from salt lakes in the Vestfold Hills (where hopefully I'll be this time next year!)<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Antarctica has been widely used as a Mars analogue, for weathering hydrology, glaciology, and microbiology."</font><br /><br />I agree with the value of using Earth analogues to aid in Mars exploration. Both in developing theories and in testing equipment. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see looking for photogenesis of methane on Mars as being much simpler than looking for life, or understanding weathering of rocks that occurs over millions of years. This (photogenesis) is a process that is limited to the surface and occurs instantaniously, with a daily cycle. I think experiments can be devised directly to look for it on Mars without much study of Earth analogues. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Methanogens have been reported from Antarctica already, from salt lakes in the Vestfold Hills (where hopefully I'll be this time next year!)"</font><br /><br />Lucky you! <br /><br />I assume you mean bacteria. Yes, Antarctica would be useful for studying methods and equipment for searching the martian icecaps for life. A much more demanding and complex task, I think, than the search for methane photogenesis reactions. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Interesting. In looking at the Earth's ice caps and deep glaciers, scientists are looking for life where one would have least expected to find it. On mars, they will be looking for life where one would most expect to find it. The question, as far as life is concerned: Is there an overlap of these two extremes on the two planets? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I hope so! It will be thirs time luck for me. Last summer I cancelled for work reasons, this summer the Anatartci divsion cancelled by trip because the ship was oversubscribed.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[paulanderson]

Oops, I meant page 3, not 6, in my reply above (psa_space). Please note also that I am posting under my regular name now (as I usually do in forums), I'm not using the old psa_space anymore. Back to the 'quark' posting title now though, oh well.<br />

 

[bonzelite]

for example, you've got basaltic rock all over Syrtis Major, an abundance of olivine there, and you've got the oxidized surfaces of the basalt blowing off as rust dust. rust and olivine = presence of water. so it's C02 + H2O = H + Olivine = CH4. this seems the simplest explanation for contemporary methane. <br /><br />as well, being that the raw ingredients and conditions for life functions may actually be home to bacteria or algae on mars (as is being evidenced in hostile and dark conditions miles below glaciers on earth in the antarctic in particular), could not earth-based life simply be transplanted on mars and grown there? would it not proliferate?