NASA scientists find primordial organic matter in meteorite!

SpeedFreek · Dec 1, 2006

Report #J06-103 NASA SCIENTISTS FIND PRIMORDIAL ORGANIC MATTER IN METEORITE NASA researchers at Johnson Space Center, Houston have found organic materials that formed in the most distant reaches of the early Solar System preserved in a unique meteorite. The study was performed on the Tagish Lake carbonaceous chondrite, a rare type of meteorite that is rich in organic (carbon-bearing) compounds. Organic matter in meteorites is a subject of intense interest because this material formed at the dawn of the Solar System and may have seeded the early Earth with the building blocks of life. The Tagish Lake meteorite is especially valuable for this work because much of it was collected immediately after its fall over Canada in 2000 and has been maintained in a frozen state, minimizing terrestrial contamination. The collection and curation of the meteorite samples preserved its pristine state. In a paper published in the Dec. 1 issue of the journal Science, the team, headed by NASA space scientist Keiko Nakamura-Messenger, reports that the Tagish Lake meteorite contains numerous submicrometer hollow organic globules. "Similar objects have been reported from several meteorites since the 60's. Some scientists believed these were space organisms, but others thought they were just terrestrial contamination," said Nakamura-Messenger. The same bubble-like organic globules appeared in this freshest meteorite ever received from space. "But in the past, there was no way to determine for sure where these organic globules came from because they were simply too small. They are only 1/10,000 inch in size or less." In 2005, two powerful new nano-technology instruments were installed in the scientists' laboratory at Johnson Space Center. The organic globules were first found in ultrathin slices of the meteorite with a new JEOL transmission electron microscope. It provided detailed structural and chemical information about the globules. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> _______________________________________________ SpeedFreek </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 1, 2006

It should be pointed out that the Tagish Lake meteorite was unique among known meteorites. Can't wait to read the whole article. Even if it's just organic molecules, this is the first EVIDENCE that such compounds could survive a trip to the surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Dec 1, 2006

What is so unusal about Tagish Lake? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

yevaud · Dec 1, 2006

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article206.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

bonzelite · Dec 1, 2006

i am just wondering why nearly every account, at least that i've read, of organics in meteorites is assumed to originate within our solar system from it's "farthest reaches." this is to me "reaching" and assuming that everything we have dropping in here has come from within this system --why? there is an entire cosmos waiting out there and far larger than our speck of nothing. and a while back, as i believe it was for the Stardust return samples, the cometary dust returned to earth, that the story sort of came and went when an astronomer, or a few of them actually, concluded and publically went on record as saying that the crystals were probably formed around another star. so is it only when the samples from afar are discovered to have been created in hot conditions do we have permission to assume that they're from another star? or could it just as well be from our own sun? and conversely, are cold-formed samples "always" from the Kuiper belt or Oort Cloud region, but never ever from outside of our solar system? so there are no more rocky bodies or structures outside of our solar system? we are the sole bearer and keeper of meteorite material floating around? so what is the deal? no errant material can ever possibly enter into our solar system from outside of it, then?

brellis · Dec 1, 2006

i am just wondering why nearly every account, at least that i've read, of organics in meteorites is assumed to originate within our solar system from it's "farthest reaches." this is to me "reaching" and assuming that everything we have dropping in here has come from within this system --why? there is an entire cosmos waiting out there and far larger than our speck of nothing. on the one hand: science conducted by human beings has a bias and a psychology to it. in the context of 1500 years of flat-earth "science" it's not surprising to see our reports flavored with bio-centrism. on the other hand: it's a loooooong way to the nearest star system. could interstellar space actually contain significant amounts of debris, comets, etc.? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

brellis · Dec 1, 2006

hey, there's an idea for travel across the galaxy -- catch a ride on an interstellar comet! Mine it for h2o on the way, and show up dressed and ready to populate! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

bonzelite · Dec 1, 2006

on the one hand: science conducted by human beings has a bias and a psychology to it. in the context of 1500 years of flat-earth "science" it's not surprising to see our reports flavored with bio-centrism. on the other hand: it's a loooooong way to the nearest star system. could interstellar space actually contain significant amounts of debris, comets, etc.?/b> doooood, there's like an entire galaxy?! like, dood? like, this spec of ours is "it?!" what?!!

JonClarke · Dec 1, 2006

"this is to me "reaching" and assuming that everything we have dropping in here has come from within this system --why? there is an entire cosmos waiting out there and far larger than our speck of nothing." It depends I guess what you mean "inside". The hydrogen, helium and some lithium of course originated in the Big Bang. Heavier elements come from either cosmic rays interacting with interstellar clouds or the insides of stars. In terms of identifable components, istopically, the vast majority of material in meteorites comes from inside our solar system, or rather its formative nebular. The exception are the Calcium-Aluminium Inclusions of carbonacous chrondrites, which predate out solar system, and are 5 billion years old. Unfortunately these are all silicates. No sign (so far) of organics from beyond our solar system. But I am sure people are looking! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Dec 1, 2006

"on the one hand: science conducted by human beings has a bias and a psychology to it. in the context of 1500 years of flat-earth "science" it's not surprising to see our reports flavored with bio-centrism. ' What 1500 years of flat earth science? What "bio-centrism" Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

brellis · Dec 1, 2006

by flat-earth science, i mean to say that for centuries, our scientific energy was constrained by the need for results the authorites desired. Science was itself created to show the brilliant design of the "one true god". Galileo took one for the team, and for true science, when he stood by his observations and against the wishes of the Catholic Church. "bio-centrism" is my quick label for the assumption or wish that life is "us", not "other". See the line of thought? It's earth first, solar system first, etc. it's tribe mentality, and for some reason, i guess i'm outside the opinion of the SDC tribe today. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

JonClarke · Dec 1, 2006

I have no idea what you are on about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bonzelite · Dec 1, 2006

no. i don't know you well enough to make such an assessment. you're apparently very mild-mannered and helpful, often neutrally so which is nice. but i'm like dood, whutup? lookee here -----> your post indicated, at least to me --taking it for face value, that you were scarcely convinced that material outside of our system is in significant enough bulk or measure or proximity to enable "outside" visitiation of non-native material, when, really, our solar system constitutes a fraction of what is availalbe materially within the context of the entire galaxy. so i'm like, why do you feel otherwise? or, rather, do you feel otherwise? did i jump to a conclusion? i apologize if i insulted you, making in haste an incorrect value judgement. about what you are maybe thinking: i know we're isolated in space from other star systems by vast emptiness. we're practically alone and entirely aliented from existence. and moreover, i tend to believe that some, if not a lot, of fallen rock from outer space is actually from beyond our solar neighborhood, even taking into account what JonClarke has just offered. the age of the solar system? sure, fallen material that allegedly predates the existence of our solar system is considered fair game for non-native material. probably, most of the material fallen as meteorites is "native." but i doubt all of it is. and i personally believe that the "age" of our solar system is alleged, with organic material existing outside of sol's influence probably in vast amounts. but this does not mean that life exists everywhere. i'm not going there with this.

brellis · Dec 1, 2006

thanks bonz, i was feeling ganged up in RL whilst reading your 'dood' post here online. My bad. Apologies to you and to JonClarke -- sorry guys! Here are my sincere questions: In what kind of detail do we know how much "stuff" there is in interstellar space? I have a good grasp of how vast the distance is between our sun and the nearest stars. In the context of light years of "empty" space, quite a lot of debris could float unnoticed even by our best 'scopes. Could it even be possible that some KBO's or Oort objects will turn out to be on some kind of interstellar path? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

brellis · Dec 1, 2006

IIRC, the existence of heavy elements in our solar system indicate it to be a 'second generation' result of a combination of stellar collisions and rebirth. To start with, we're made up of stuff from beyond our solar system! Regarding my pet term "bio-centrism": I use that term very much in agreement with the sentiments you expressed. When I was a kid, Astronomy was different from "Science" in my mind's eye. When NASA announced that the ALH480001 (?) meteor may contain proof that life arose on Mars, Astronomy became science to me. Any time I get the foolish idea that I know something, I think about how relatively narrow my horizons were as a youngster. I gotta go fellas, catch up to you's later! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better. </div>

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2006

n what kind of detail do we know how much "stuff" there is in interstellar space? I have a good grasp of how vast the distance is between our sun and the nearest stars. In the context of light years of "empty" space, quite a lot of debris could float unnoticed even by our best 'scopes. yes. we share these beliefs and rhetorical questions. i personally feel that there is more errant material beyond our solar system than is presently believed to account for many meteorite events. some KBOs may even be captured rogue visitors from light years away. what i'm saying is that stuff that comprises our solar system, that interacts with it's constituent objects, is not all native to this system. yet this is scarcely, nearly never, mentioned in press releases. if something is considered far distant, it is nearly always printed or stated as "from the farthest reaches of the solar system." pay attention to the catch phrases that describe the situation "safely." as the farthest reaches could be indefinitely "far" and "reaching." most are reluctant to ever print "it may very well be from outside of our solar system." it's not safe to say that. the only account of that happening was with Stardust. they actually admitted publically that the samples show possible evidence of being formed proximal or within another star. but that story quickly vanished from view. it wasn't safe enough. why? because, then, they would have to actually face the music and realize that quite possibly cometary theories are currently wrong.

bobw · Dec 2, 2006

the only account of that happening was with Stardust. they actually admitted publically that the samples show possible evidence of being formed proximal or within another star. but that story quickly vanished from view. it wasn't safe enough. What an absolute crock. They were trying to collect interstellar dust that they knew was coming from a specific direction. They have only scanned about 1/4 of the collector so far and people have had 20 million looks at focus movies. They have had meetings about how to get the dust out. They are going to re-scan the whole thing with transmitted light. Edit: removed last sentence. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2006

you dance around the barn; of course a comet is coming from a specific direction relative to the earth. how is this clarifying and rebutting what i said? and who said Wild 2 is guaranteed to be from within our own solar system? or all comets? i'm sure they've had lots of meetings about how to get the dust out. the suggestion was made that the material appears to have possibly been borne from another star system. how horrible! being that other star systems exist, and material is floating in space, how is it so far-fetched, mr. bobo, that a comet could be interstellar in origin? as well, would this not put the comets-are-only-from-the-netherworlds-of-freezing-conditions-at-the-edges-of-the-solar-system theory to shame? at least rake it over the coals a bit? just a little?

JonClarke · Dec 2, 2006

Bob This is your moderator speaking. Your language is uncalled for and I advise you to edit your response to bonz. Positions can be rebutted without degenerating to vulgarity. If you do not edit this response I will do it for you. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Dec 2, 2006

the age of the solar system? sure, fallen material that allegedly predates the existence of our solar system is considered fair game for non-native material. probably, most of the material fallen as meteorites is "native." but i doubt all of it is. and i personally believe that the "age" of our solar system is alleged, with organic material existing outside of sol's influence probably in vast amounts. but this does not mean that life exists everywhere. i'm not going there with this. Care to expand on this? 1) In what way is the age of the solar system "alledged"? 2) What evidence do you have that there are vast amounts of organic material from outside the solar systems? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

vandivx · Dec 2, 2006

interesting, and how it seems so real that the basis of life would have been forming out there long before our Sun coalesced and started to burn I don't see any point in some discussion then whether those globules would have come from elsewhere farther out because if they would have formed somewhere there far out, why not here as well, as I said no point about that whole point seems to be that basis of life could start out in the cold space in matterial that was still waiting to coalesce into stars and then after they were born it would seed them and their planets and where conditions permited, the life as we know it here on Earth had risen vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2006

Organic matter in meteorites is a subject of intense interest because this material formed at the dawn of the Solar System ... at the dawn only? what about long before? but this is just "impossible?" so absolutely unwavering, the carbonaceous chondrites, among those that may bear organics, are solely in the domain of the solar system? what if some of them are not? so this is assuming, too, that no scientist existing has concluded that organics can pre-date our solar system? and radiometric dating is a flawless unwavering measurement unmolested by cosmic events in time?

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2006

I don't see any point in some discussion then whether those globules would have come from elsewhere farther out because if they would have formed somewhere there far out, why not here as well, as I said no point about that yes i agree ---to everyone, move along now. there's nothing more to see or be revealed. move along... move along....

JonClarke · Dec 2, 2006

By no means impossible, just no evidence as yet that I know of. What evidence do you have of a major contribution of interstellar organics to carbonaceous chondrites? Wat evidence do you have that the isotopic rations radiometric ages are based on have been perturbed, and by what processes? How about you answer my two previous questions? Evasion is not an option. 1) In what way is the age of the solar system "alleged"? 2) What evidence do you have that there are vast amounts of organic material from outside the solar system? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

SpeedFreek · Dec 2, 2006

Well, the article actually says: "The isotopic ratios in these globules show that they formed at temperatures of about -260° C, near absolute zero," said Scott Messenger, NASA space scientist and co-author of the paper. "The organic globules most likely originated in the cold molecular cloud that gave birth to our Solar System, or at the outermost reaches of the early Solar System." So, from the temperature that they formed at, it is most likely that the organic globules formed in the cold molecular cloud that gave birth to our solar system, or at the cold edges of our early solar system. Not definite, but most likely. They formed in place that was near absolute zero. That's all we can say so far. So, thats not near any stars then. It seems most likely they formed either before our star heated up, or a long way away from it, but not near other stars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> _______________________________________________ SpeedFreek </div>

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