NASA won't decide on Mars Sample Return plan until mid-2026

[Admin]

NASA is considering two ways to get its precious Mars samples back to Earth but won't pick a winner for another 18 months or so.

NASA won't decide on Mars Sample Return plan until mid-2026 : Read more

 

[Jim Franklin]

NASA is considering two ways to get its precious Mars samples back to Earth but won't pick a winner for another 18 months or so.

NASA won't decide on Mars Sample Return plan until mid-2026 : Read more

I'm surprised the decision hasn't been made already - leave them in place for human boots to collect and then sample, either investigating on Mars (unlikely) or sending them back to Earth with the first crew to land if Musk's timeline is taken on past timelines, around 2032.

 

[Rob77]

I'm surprised the decision hasn't been made already - leave them in place for human boots to collect and then sample, either investigating on Mars (unlikely) or sending them back to Earth with the first crew to land if Musk's timeline is taken on past timelines, around 2032.

If we get boots on Mars those samples will most likely be redundant, basically a museum piece. I'm sure future astronauts to Mars will have equipment that will be able to dig for samples deeper and in other locations that Perseverance couldn't get to.

 

[Jim Franklin]

If we get boots on Mars those samples will most likely be redundant, basically a museum piece. I'm sure future astronauts to Mars will have equipment that will be able to dig for samples deeper and in other locations that Perseverance couldn't get to.

The equipment needed is very specialised and sensitive, it is unlikely that such equipment will be lofted to Mars with the first Humans. A lot depends on wether the first humans there plan to stay or come back.

If I was in a position too - I would go.

 

[ChrisA]

I'm surprised the decision hasn't been made already - leave them in place for human boots to collect and then sample, either investigating on Mars (unlikely) or sending them back to Earth with the first crew to land if Musk's timeline is taken on past timelines, around 2032.

SpaceX might one day return a Starship from Mars to Earth, but their plan requires first building a fuel factory, fuel tank farm and launch tower on Mars. As they found out with the first Starship test, a simple launch pad will come apart and damage the engines, They need the tower (at least a short one with no "chopsticks") because they need the quick disconnect so they can continue to fuel until just seconds before lift off. They need the tank farm and fuel factory to feed the quick disconnect. For that kind of power and to keep it working for years, nuclear power is the only option. Solar does not work well on Mars.

This might work, but building all that infrastructure on Mars will take many, many years and you can't use astronauts until you test the system.

Notice that not even SpaceX is suggesting that a manned return will be faster and cheaper.

If SpaceX were to do this, they would have to send a Starship on a one-way mission. Its primary cargo would be the MAV (Mars Accent Vehicle) and Starship would only replace the "sky crane". This might be the "commercial plan: NASA is considering. SpaceX could have a one-way Starship working in the foreseeable future.

Of the two, Sky Crane has worked twice already on Mars while Starship has yet to reach orbit. I can now see why NASA wants to wait before they decide. At Starship still can't reach orbit and do a fuel transfer by 2026, they go with Skycrane. Witch lander they use SkyCrane or Starship I really just a detail, most of the mission remains the same.

 

[ChrisA]

If we get boots on Mars those samples will most likely be redundant, basically a museum piece. I'm sure future astronauts to Mars will have equipment that will be able to dig for samples deeper and in other locations that Perseverance couldn't get to.

Have you seen what this equipment looks like? It is not just the instrument but the support system and people who surround it. We are talking about a lab 100X larger than any conceivable lander. And even worse, this kind of analysis is not something a typical astronaut could do. or any small team could do.

 

[EJD1984]

What does this mean for CCRS (Capture Containment Release System) being worked on at GSFC. Since it sounds like this will be used in either Option 1 or 2, and needs to fly with the ESA Return Vehicle (which is still in full design). I would guess full design and development would (re)start on CCRS ASAP.

 

[ChrisA]

I

What does this mean for CCRS (Capture Containment Release System) being worked on at GSFC. Since it sounds like this will be used in either Option 1 or 2, and needs to fly with the ESA Return Vehicle (which is still in full design). I would guess full design and development would (re)start on CCRS ASAP.

The way I read it was that only the lander will change. Landing on Mars is =hard and they are looking at reusing the existing Sky Crane. But this meant a lot of mass had to come off the payload.

The commercial proposal, if I had to guess, was to use Starship as the lander. It would carry the MAV. So only the lander changes. But it appears NASA is going to wait told SpaceX to "show us, don't tell us" Starship can work.

 

[Jim Franklin]

SpaceX might one day return a Starship from Mars to Earth, but their plan requires first building a fuel factory, fuel tank farm and launch tower on Mars. As they found out with the first Starship test, a simple launch pad will come apart and damage the engines, They need the tower (at least a short one with no "chopsticks") because they need the quick disconnect so they can continue to fuel until just seconds before lift off. They need the tank farm and fuel factory to feed the quick disconnect. For that kind of power and to keep it working for years, nuclear power is the only option. Solar does not work well on Mars.

This might work, but building all that infrastructure on Mars will take many, many years and you can't use astronauts until you test the system.

Notice that not even SpaceX is suggesting that a manned return will be faster and cheaper.

If SpaceX were to do this, they would have to send a Starship on a one-way mission. Its primary cargo would be the MAV (Mars Accent Vehicle) and Starship would only replace the "sky crane". This might be the "commercial plan: NASA is considering. SpaceX could have a one-way Starship working in the foreseeable future.

Of the two, Sky Crane has worked twice already on Mars while Starship has yet to reach orbit. I can now see why NASA wants to wait before they decide. At Starship still can't reach orbit and do a fuel transfer by 2026, they go with Skycrane. Witch lander they use SkyCrane or Starship I really just a detail, most of the mission remains the same.

Whilst Mars has lower gravity than Earth, there is still a substantial challenge to lift off the surface, its still 3.78m/s and is only part of the equation, although that is significantly more than any body we have lifted off from except the Earth, this is well within the capabilities of Starship.

If we assume a lift off weight of 10t payload, insluding the crew and all their provisions, a Starship would require around 238t of liquid methane and LOX to give it a

Mars Surface to Low Mars Orbit (LMO)​

• Δv required: ~4.1 km/s

b. Low Mars Orbit to Earth Transfer Orbit​

• Δv required: ~1.5 km/s (Assuming an efficient Hohmann transfer trajectory)

Total Δv:
~5.6 km/s

Thus, claims that this is difficult are spurious. If Starship were designed to only be a one way trip, there is no reason for the design being capable of lifting off the planet.

The issue any such mission would have is O2 production for LOX, current prototype systems would take in excess of 10 years to produce the required 184t of Oxygen using even a scaled up MOXIE @ 2kg per hour would take in excess of 10 years - to produce the required 54t of Methane would take around 2 years if you also take into account that for every 100kg of CH4 required, you need to first produce 25kg of H2, which would need to be electrolysed from water.

Of course, an alternative way for the sample return would be for a Starship crew to take a solid propellant rocket with them - it would require to have a lift of weight of around 500kg with a 25kg sample payload, around 1m diamter and 4.5m length.