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bahahaha, Obama is nothing but a sell out, his adminstration and more will do nothing but sell the US to china. when the only thing left in the US is nukes, the administration will become a part of the chinese gov.
Bo, please stick to the topic of space exploration and don't turn this into a politcal thread.
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Sounds like typical diplomatic lip service to me. Pick uncontroversial topics and pretend like you are going to cooperate. I don't think the Chinese are particularly interested in cooperating with us in Space, I think they are more interested in having their own independent program that they can use as a source of national pride.
Last I heard the chinese are very interested in docking with the ISS. They have everything to gain from co operation in space.
Its not just copying the hardware, but even the routines, even the instructions and procedures to dock and operate in space will be handed over to them. It's all the small details that are only gained from trial and error.
Just what concessions have the chinese ever given in any area?
Its not just copying the hardware, but even the routines, even the instructions and procedures to dock and operate in space will be handed over to them. It's all the small details that are only gained from trial and error.
Just what concessions have the chinese ever given in any area?
From a non political, strictly financial POV, I'm curious if there isn't some reason to stop trying to beat (realistically, given the american public's indifference to China's resurgence as a world power, at least as far as buying at Walmart, etc) China and instead join it, in a long term perspective, that might warrant this kind of cooperation.tanstaafl76":31p6zbop said:
I've done zero research on this (too busy with real work), obviously
Someone debunk this hypothesis..America went through this with the Japanese during the 80's, it was even more pessimistic then. The Japanese were even buying up all of America because of their strong Yen and weak dollar. Just because China is on the up and up now, doesn't mean it will continue. The difference is that Japan was after all an ally, a democracy, a pacifist country. China is nothing like any of this.
Talking in peace, without any conflicts on the table, can only be good. Another thing is how much it helps to resolve open problems. Good and bad is defined from a point of view, whichever that may be, unfortunately. Values in one society don't always reflect values in some other, which is a constant source of trouble. This is on a society level only, couple of levels above you and me and some Chinese guy, but at the end, our a..es get hurt.
Space is a place from where we can now see how small we are and makes it very easy to notice how insignificant are our differences. We must find a way to cooperate here, it is not about nations and politics, it is about life and our chance to play a role in it, good one, for a change.
For Chinese it will be no problem to dock with ISS, with so many Soyuz compatible ports, if i'm correct, even their planned station can get into ISS picture, with not such much trouble. Looks like ISS has become kind of a entry ticket to a space club, let's hope it will grow on in this direction With, let's say two, Chinese modules, couple of Bigelows, there are still couple more lying in half forgotten warehouses around the world, perhaps some new fuel depot things, and some more, ISS would be even more inspiring touristic destination ..
Who said there would be no need for McDonalds on ISS ?
Space is a place from where we can now see how small we are and makes it very easy to notice how insignificant are our differences. We must find a way to cooperate here, it is not about nations and politics, it is about life and our chance to play a role in it, good one, for a change.
For Chinese it will be no problem to dock with ISS, with so many Soyuz compatible ports, if i'm correct, even their planned station can get into ISS picture, with not such much trouble. Looks like ISS has become kind of a entry ticket to a space club, let's hope it will grow on in this direction
With, let's say two, Chinese modules, couple of Bigelows, there are still couple more lying in half forgotten warehouses around the world, perhaps some new fuel depot things, and some more, ISS would be even more inspiring touristic destination .. Who said there would be no need for McDonalds on ISS ?
Like them or not, the Chinese will get into space and explore. They have a roadmap in place, and a manned landing on Mars is on that list. Until now, the USA has used it's position and veto power to block out the Chinese on programs such as ISS.
It's no secret the Chinese have used industrial espionage and many other dirty tricks to leverage knowledge of technology, especially from the USA. Face it, if you can find some clown to sell out his country for a million bucks, you have access to a lot of data. And you have to admit, spending ten million on hackers or traitors is much cheaper than spending the billions to develop programs.
But hey, the Chinese are doing it to everyone. For instance, China obtained a Belarussian MAZ chassis that is used for the transporter/launcher for the Russian SS-20. This leap forward in off-road mobility fits right in with the Chinese strategy of placing their entire ICBM force on mobile launchers. They won't buy it, just reverse-engineer it, and apply the technology applicable to their desires. But of course, "been there, done that" with the USA. In 2006 (OK you Obama bashers, fly straight, this happened before he took office) Oshkosh sold an Oshkosh(R) Striker aircraft rescue and fire fighting (ARFF) to the Chinese. Yup, expect a lot of reverse-engineering and one day, Oshkosh technology on a mobile ICBM launcher from China. Nothing inappropriate or illegal about the Oshkosh sale, I'm just using this as one example that the Chinese are on a fast track to collect as much technology as possible for their own uses. But you know what? Everyone's doing it..... everyone.
So you can do as some propose, put the Chinese at arm's length, ignore them, and act tough. Of course, the problem with that tactic is that one day people will wake up to learn the Chinese have made a quantum leap in their technology base without anyone in the USA being aware of it. Then, they will be the ones dealing the cards and calling the shots.
Or maybe, strengthen ties with the Chinese, allow partnerships, and dispel tactics that lead to war. And if the USA is involved in partnerships, then the USA will have a much better grasp of the level of Chinese technology, their goals, and how they intend to impliment these plans.
And as they say, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.
That being said, I have zero personal animosity against the Chinese, in fact I like them a lot. They aren't the bad guys, they just want to move forward in the road to progress.
It's no secret the Chinese have used industrial espionage and many other dirty tricks to leverage knowledge of technology, especially from the USA. Face it, if you can find some clown to sell out his country for a million bucks, you have access to a lot of data. And you have to admit, spending ten million on hackers or traitors is much cheaper than spending the billions to develop programs.
But hey, the Chinese are doing it to everyone. For instance, China obtained a Belarussian MAZ chassis that is used for the transporter/launcher for the Russian SS-20. This leap forward in off-road mobility fits right in with the Chinese strategy of placing their entire ICBM force on mobile launchers. They won't buy it, just reverse-engineer it, and apply the technology applicable to their desires. But of course, "been there, done that" with the USA. In 2006 (OK you Obama bashers, fly straight, this happened before he took office) Oshkosh sold an Oshkosh(R) Striker aircraft rescue and fire fighting (ARFF) to the Chinese. Yup, expect a lot of reverse-engineering and one day, Oshkosh technology on a mobile ICBM launcher from China. Nothing inappropriate or illegal about the Oshkosh sale, I'm just using this as one example that the Chinese are on a fast track to collect as much technology as possible for their own uses. But you know what? Everyone's doing it..... everyone.
So you can do as some propose, put the Chinese at arm's length, ignore them, and act tough. Of course, the problem with that tactic is that one day people will wake up to learn the Chinese have made a quantum leap in their technology base without anyone in the USA being aware of it. Then, they will be the ones dealing the cards and calling the shots.
Or maybe, strengthen ties with the Chinese, allow partnerships, and dispel tactics that lead to war. And if the USA is involved in partnerships, then the USA will have a much better grasp of the level of Chinese technology, their goals, and how they intend to impliment these plans.
And as they say, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.
That being said, I have zero personal animosity against the Chinese, in fact I like them a lot. They aren't the bad guys, they just want to move forward in the road to progress.
Agree w/ Eman-3. ISS is short of cash. It needs a new partner with deep pockets and big rockets, and there really aren't any other choices. China has no interest in a new moon race. If they lost, they would look foolish. If they won, they would irritate their biggest customer. The objective of their program is to show they are in the first rank of industrial counties. There are no military secrets on the ISS, and we are already working with the Russins, so it's just silly to say China will steal our "secrets".
The ISS program was only funded when Russia joined, because it was believed that it would serve would serve as a catalyst for internaitonal trust and cooperation. That's what's needed now. Anyone who thinks we can afford a new space race needs to find some neighbors willing to increase their taxes by $100B. It won't happen. China will soon be the second largest economy in the world, and is the only one with the resources to add significantly to the ISS program. We had better learn to work with them, because we cannot afford to fight with them.
The ISS program was only funded when Russia joined, because it was believed that it would serve would serve as a catalyst for internaitonal trust and cooperation. That's what's needed now. Anyone who thinks we can afford a new space race needs to find some neighbors willing to increase their taxes by $100B. It won't happen. China will soon be the second largest economy in the world, and is the only one with the resources to add significantly to the ISS program. We had better learn to work with them, because we cannot afford to fight with them.
The Russians already knew how to get to and operate in space. They have more experience in running a space station and long duration human space travel than the US. The US had a lot to learn from the Russians.
What would the Chinese be bringing to the table? Nothing.
What would the Chinese be bringing to the table? Nothing.
By nothing you mean money, will power and the ability to keep the station running after being given some training right.
China has cash and is one of very few countries expanding their space agency they bring a lot to the table in potential.
China has cash and is one of very few countries expanding their space agency they bring a lot to the table in potential.
That, operational human space transport infrastructure, and a couple of modules for ISS. Not many can do all of that.access":ekk789co said:
China has money eh? Do you know what Chinas GDP is? Between Japans and Germany's, 4.3 trillion. The US is 14 trillion. They have tremendous potential, but for now, they are not our sugar daddy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
The space station life is finite, whatever that many be. The chinese are not going to be building new modules in time for when the rest of the station is falling apart.
The Chinese are not gullible like you know who. They won't be underwriting anyone elses space station. They are looking for a free ride.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
The space station life is finite, whatever that many be. The chinese are not going to be building new modules in time for when the rest of the station is falling apart.
The Chinese are not gullible like you know who. They won't be underwriting anyone elses space station. They are looking for a free ride.
Booban":36wjg2ls said:
The Wikipedia data is outdated, as the flag on the article notes. The current data is available from the
CIA World Factbook:
China's GDP is $8T vs $14.4T for the US, but their rate of growth is 9%, more than twice ours even in a good year and more than 8 times our current growth rate. China's GDP will pass that of the US within 10 years at current growth rates. More important, they have a large surplus while we have a large deficit, so we cannot increase expenditures without either borrowing from them or increasing taxes, which even space supporters won't accept.
What evidence is there for this? Every component of the ISS can be replaced, even the nodes and trusses. The only thing that will lead to its demise is the US pulling out our support but blocking other countries from taking our place.
They are looking for respect from and stable relationships with the rest of the world, including the US. They are willing and able to pay a fair share.
vulture4":20sxoqde said:
Uh, where is the evidence for this? Maybe theoretically possible, but damned difficult. And how would the replacement modules, nodes and trusses get up there post-STS?
Just askin'.
Given that you really believe that China will over take the US in GDP in 10 years (remember China is a communist country, truth is a joke)...see my second point and Swampcats point about the life time of the ISS.
Now, regarding China's intention, how can you draw that assumption? Certainly not based on their past behavior on any level, economic or geopolitical. But to be honest it is not their fault, it is hard not to take advantage of naive and gullible people.
Now, regarding China's intention, how can you draw that assumption? Certainly not based on their past behavior on any level, economic or geopolitical. But to be honest it is not their fault, it is hard not to take advantage of naive and gullible people.
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