Non US Sea Dragon?

[tomnackid]

Hmmmm, I don't recall advocating governments bribing or threatening anybody. I merely pointed out the here in the real world it happens so any scheme to hide information that some government may want access to better take that fact into account. <br /><br />If you are going to get this huffy over every question and criticism I question your temperament to run any kind of a business.<br /><br />Odd, we always seem to agree with each other on the "Phenomena" board! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[mlorrey]

Well, perhaps I misread the following: "Encryption doesn't mean squat when you can just bribe or threaten someone to give you the key."<br /><br />Can you, in fact, do this legally? No, you can't. I can't, you can't and the government can't legally use illegal means to collect evidence or even just spy on its citizens. If data is outside their jurisdiction, they cannot force someone to go get it and use it in court as evidence, and for you or I to force someone is a serious crime of itself. So the claim that they "Can" do that is illegitimate. <br /><br />The fact that they are spying on citizens without any judicial approval should make anyone, who understands what being an American means, "huffy".<br /><br />I get huffy when people act as if "might makes right" is the whole of the law and that that is okay. That isn't the sort of country we are supposed to be living in, and if you think it is, then you don't belong here. My huffiness comes from having served this country defending the freedoms and rights we all are supposed to have against things like unreasonable search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and general tyranny by government. I won't have anyone work for or with me that does approve of government tyranny. I have to be able to trust the people that work for me, and pro-tyranny fools are the most untrustworthy types, IMHO.<br /><br />The growing totalitarianism in this world should make anyone who cares about freedom "Huffy".<br /><br />"Government should fear its people."<br />"Life Free or Die, Death is Not the Worst of Evils"

 

[tomnackid]

Might doesn't make right, but might usually wins. That is why instead of crabbing about the government and wishing it would go away (like many so-called libertarians do--I'm not singling anyone out, just a general observation from hanging around many libertarians in my day) I want to make my government accountable to myself and my fellow citizens. That way I can at least try to have a government that is mighty (to effectively protect ourselves against other governments that don't give a dam about accountability to the people) and is also ethically right.<br /><br />Ignoring the fact that there are plenty of people out there--private citizens and government employees--willing to use any means available to get what they want is not the answer. Turning over the rocks and exposing them is the answer. That is one reason why your "data haven" idea makes me uncomfortable. As Robert Heinlien said "Privacy laws just force people to make the bugs smaller." Putting data out of someone's reach will just makes them reach further. If you consider government to be your enemy you will just force it to go further and further to try and beat you. If you consider it your tool then you have control over it. Building data havens in the sky to "protect yourself from the government" is just a cop out for someone unwilling to take responsibility and take control of their government from the hands of the thugs currently running it.<br /><br />Besides, you talk as if the American government is the only game in town. At least here we have the luxury of condemning our elected officials for their illegal actions--we even have legal recourse to depose them. There are many places in the world where the concept of "illegal search and seizure" or "rights of the accused" would just get you laughed at. How do you plan to stop these governments from flexing their muscles if spaceflight is cheap and easy?<br /><br />In the end laws only work if one has the might to enforce them. It is up to us to make sure t

 

[egom]

Well,<br /><br />I have all the respect for mlorrey, even if I do not agree with all his ideas. At least he is doing something. Doing is something totally different that thinking and it is a lot harder.<br /><br />However we will make the step to the space for one reason and only: real estate. Think at this: to buy 2 acres of land you spend 100k USD. As times passes the price of the land will increase - which means that people will not afford to live on earth. Where to send all the extra people? In space of course. Do you think that the irish left their island because they loved America? NO! They left because they did not have space where to live and food to eat.<br /><br />The same will happen with people in space. At this point using the current technology this is not feasible. But the day the national goverments of at least one nation will consider this feasibe and will see an opportunity in this they will start sending in space the poor and the ones that have less chances on earth. This way they solve a problem at home and they relieve the pressure on their land.<br /><br />EgoM

 

[mlorrey]

"Building data havens in the sky to "protect yourself from the government" is just a cop out for someone unwilling to take responsibility and take control of their government from the hands of the thugs currently running it. <br /><br />Besides, you talk as if the American government is the only game in town. At least here we have the luxury of condemning our elected officials for their illegal actions--we even have legal recourse to depose them. There are many places in the world where the concept of "illegal search and seizure" or "rights of the accused" would just get you laughed at. How do you plan to stop these governments from flexing their muscles if spaceflight is cheap and easy? <br /><br />In the end laws only work if one has the might to enforce them. It is up to us to make sure the laws enforced are right to begin with. "<br /><br />Well, you don't know much about me, so I'll let this go. Up until October, I was vice-chair of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire. I was a founding member of the Free State Project, and I founded the Constitution Park Foundation working on eminent domain reform via holding Supreme Court Justices personally responsible for their bad eminent domain rulings. As a result, we now have a state constitutional amendment up for voting in this state in November. I also led support for the secession project of Killington, VT, to leave that state and rejoin NH, and got a bill passed to that effect in the NH legislature.<br /><br />So, accusing me of copping out and not taking responsibility of taking control of my government doesn't wash.<br /><br />One reason I am getting disenchanted with government action is because I've been there and done these things, and what I have to show for it is my mail mysteriously disappears, does not show up for two months at a time, the state government has unconstitutionally suspended my drivers license for no legal cause (I've never had an accident or DWI), just to politically immobilize me. Whenever I fly, I

 

[scottb50]

I think having a central store for all your data would be good. As long as you can be assured of privacy. Which you can't be sure of today. You could put it anywhere, Switzerland, Barbados, wherever they assure privacy.<br /><br />The problem is whatever technology you come up with to encode it they defeat or coerce a backdoor. Dibolt being a prime example. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

Taking back control of government is going to take a lot more effort from a lot more people than just me, but so many of the rest of you are happy to let our government become the next great tyranny, you are all so willing to give up your liberties and tolerate injustice against your fellow citizens, just so long as they promise to keep you "safe" from the dreaded terrorists. <br /><br />The government has no intent to give back control to the people, or allow it to be taken back. <br />---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Ok, now you are just talking out of both side of your mouth! You say on the on hand that we all (except you of course) don't care about tyranny and don't try to do anything about yet on the other hand its all pointless to try and do anything since the big bad gov'ment will never change. Which is it? As long as there are at least 2 people on the face of the earth there will be some kind of government working. Deal with it. I would rather deal with the realities of life (government and bureaucracy will ALWAYS try to grow as large as possible if you don't slap them down occasionally) then live with my head up my butt in some fantasy world when "come the revolution" we will have some perfect libertarian government that will never be corrupt or overbearing. As Woody Allen said in Sleeper, "In six months we'll be stealing Erno's nose."<br /><br />And yes, I knew exactly who you are. I live in Connecticut and follow local New England politics. I'm also active in science fiction fandom and rub elbows with Libertarians and libertarians (if you don't know the difference consult some of Jerry Pournelle's essays) on many occasions. <br /><br />Anyway, I wish you good luck with your plans and hope that your disillusionment doesn't drive you completely away from society at large since that does no one any good. A standard space "cargo container" is a good idea to encourage the development of private (whateve

 

[publiusr]

I wonder if MUSK might make some contacts with shipyards and work with some pressure-fed advocates.

 

[mlorrey]

Firstly, I didn't say everyone besides me, I said "so many of the rest of you". Now, I try to be pragmatic, but I don't blithely accept every tyrannical act as inevitable or unavoidable. At the very least, I denounce it for what it is. Tyranny creeps its way to power with every act of silent acquiescence.<br /><br />Well, so I assume you know Tony Stelik. Ask him about the time he drove us in his RAV4 up a mountain on a snowmobile trail...<br /><br />I'm not giving up yet, I've got plenty of battles to fight, but it is a standard rule of movements against tyranny that they need a place of sanctuary. The most effective way to force statists to behave better is to give the people alternatives to vote with their feet, with their dollars, and with their data. For this reason, orbiting data havens will help to better illustrate the tyrannies taking place here. Right now, without such examples of how things should be, the tyrants are still able to claim that this is the freest place on earth. When every other place sucks, being the freest only means they have the least amount of manure on their faces.<br /><br />Bureaucracies grow if you allow them to exist as professional self perpetuating organizations. Keep them as volunteer non-profit organizations that have to raise their funds, and you never have a problem with them.<br /><br />There is no reason why profit and nonprofit organizations cannot do just about anything government does, beyond prosecuting those who commit force or fraud against their fellow citizens. Everything else government does is either charity or insurance, all of which are formerly private markets which have been socialized.<br />

 

[ve7rkt]

Government oppression? I'll buy that.<br />A far larger market for personal satellites than I would estimate myself? Sure.<br />A RAV4 sport-cute actually going off-road? Now THAT'S ridiculous...

 

[publiusr]

I guess I'm a Jeff Bell "Totalitarian" then. As long as gov't exists--use it for something besides fighter planes.<br /><br />Back On Topic:<br /><br />Sea Dragon sturctures are already being made--of a sort:<br />http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=businesstech&Number=517773&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=2&vc=1#Post517773

 

[publiusr]

Bumping..