Origins of the Universe, Big Bang or No Bang.

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H

harrycostas

Guest
G'day yevaud

Smile

Noblackhole is on track, he understands more then you think.

Rather then be a critic, what is your opinion?
 
H

harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzz

2MASS Galaxy Redshift Catalog (XSCz)
"Finger of God" Radial Velocity Artifacts

http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/ja ... /fgod.html

Spectroscopic velocities are biased to cluster galaxies with infall space motions that are primarily along the line of sight. The end result for a cluster is a set of redshifts that are enhanced along the radial direction and suppressed (or more accurately, neutral) along the perpendicular direction. The cluster thus appears "cigar" shaped, seemingly stretched along the radial direction (for a better explanation of the 'caustic' shape, see Liz Praton's Infall Artifact article). The higher the velocity dispersion, the more stretched the cluster appears. As legend has it, Brent Tully referred to these artifacts as "fingers of god", a colorful description of how the stretched cluster seemed to point back to the Earth, as if they were a big god-like finger. Perhaps the most famous finger is seen in the CfA Great Wall pie-diagram produced by Huchra & Gellar, showing the radial stretching of the Coma Cluster that points back to the observer, perpendicular to a coherent string of clusters that is collectively known as the Great Wall.

The common error that shows us a stretching of the images from Earth requires futher research into redshift data and the velocity of objects that assumes the expansion of the universe.
 
N

noblackhole

Guest
harrycostas":2eezk8sc said:
G'day from the land of ozzzz

Smile,,,,,,,,,,, there are many old dogs that think non main stream.

Hi Harry, you're right. I'm an old dog too.
 
Y

yevaud

Guest
harrycostas":4whg73oc said:
G'day yevaud

Smile

Noblackhole is on track, he understands more then you think.

Rather then be a critic, what is your opinion?

Crothers has been discredited to my satisfaction. And why should I not be a critic? What was the purpose for even posting all about Crothers, if not seeking debate?
 
S

SpeedFreek

Guest
To be fair to harry, the "Crothers" issues in this thread are more about papers that have been published in a journal he edits and the standards of that journals peer-review process. The first paper harry posted in this thread was about dark matter/energy, and noblackhole has more recently been posting a paper by Prof. Robitaille claiming that the WMAP and COBE teams have falsified their data to fit the theory.
 
Y

yevaud

Guest
SF, it's all so curious that invariably I will hear how legitimate scientists who have spent decades learning and perfecting their art are "falsifying" data - and none of their peers ever picks up on it. It's always some random person on a message board who has possession of the secrets of the universe. makes you go "Hmm HMM," and not in a kind way either.
 
N

noblackhole

Guest
ramparts":30eirj28 said:
Hi all - I'd been staying clear of this thread, but someone brought up noblackhole's abuse of science in another thread and I just had to step in.

Noblackhole, there's a very simple answer to your question about vacuum solutions of the Einstein equations ("Ric = 0" as you call them, presumably having picked up your math on Wikipedia). Using a vacuum means your solution applies where there's not matter - but it can still be affected by matter from elsewhere! The caveat is that you can't use it at points where there is matter, only outside. This is one of the neater things about solutions like the Schwarzschild and Kerr metrics (which describe non-rotating and rotating spherically symmetric spacetimes, respectively). Einstein's equations don't become meaningless in a vacuum, and a 0 Ricci tensor doesn't mean the spacetime is flat - the equations are still valid for describing how matter curves spacetime!

So when we derive, for example, the Schwarzschild solution, we assume there to be no matter, but there are still some free paramaters that decide whether or not the spacetime is flat, or whether it's curved by a distribution of matter somewhere else. As it turns out, those free parameters are related to Newton's constant, G, the mass, m, etc., of something spherically symmetric at the origin of the solution.

Anyway, that's more information than is necessary to answer your question, but hopefully some will find it interesting :) Vacuum solutions (like one describing space outside the Sun) are still affected by matter from elsewhere - they just can't be examined where there actually is matter (like in the interior of the Sun).

Not so ramparts. The claim that Ric = 0 describes the "field outside a body" is sophistic nonsense. You have given Einstein's field equations on your posting header. The left side of the equations describes the gravitational field, manifest in the geometry (and thereby curvature) of spacetime; the right side describes the configuration of matter that causes the gravitational field. So the field equations couple the gravitational field to the matter that causes it. Einstein's field equations:

"...couple the gravitational field (contained in the curvature of spacetime) with its sources."
Foster, J., Nightingale, J. D. A short course in General Relativity, Springer-Verlag, New York, Inc., 1995.

"Since gravitation is determined by the matter present, the same must then be postulated for geometry, too. The geometry of space is not given a priori, but is only determined by matter."

Pauli, W. The Theory of Relativity, Dover Publications, Inc., New York, 1981.

"In general relativity, the stress-energy or energy-momentum tensor T^a^b acts as the source of the gravitational
field. It is related to the Einstein tensor and hence to the curvature of spacetime via the Einstein equation".

McMahon, D. Relativity Demystified, A Self-teaching guide; McGraw-Hill, New York, 2006

"Thus the equations of the gravitational field also contain the equations for the matter (material particles
and electromagnetic fields) which produces this field."

Landau, L., Lifshitz E. The Classical Theory of Fields, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc., Reading, Massachusettes, 1951.

"Again, just as the electric field, for its part, depends upon the charges and is instrumental in producing mechanical interaction between the charges, so we must assume here that the metrical field (or, in mathematical language, the tensor with components g_{ik} is related to the material filling the world. ... we have, in following the ideas set out just above, to discover the invariant law of gravitation, according to which matter determines the components Gamma^a_{bi} of the gravitational field, and which replaces the Newtonian law of attraction in Einstein’s Theory."
Weyl, H. Space Time Matter, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1952.

"... the whole of the stress-energy tensor T" is "the source of the gravitational field."
Schutz, B. F. A first course in general relativity, Cambridge University Press, UK, 1990.

So, setting Ric = 0 eliminates all sources of a gravitational field by construction, yet the astrophysical scientists claim that this describes the "gravitational field outside a body"; their alleged "vacuum solutions". What is the source of the gravitational field "outside the body"? Well, according to the very same astrophysical scientists, its the body! But if the body causes the gravitational field (i.e. a source thereof) it must be described by a non-zero energy-momentum tensor in Einstein's field equations, as the astrophysical scientists also assert (as cited above). As for the "Schwarzschild solution" in particular:

"... the corresponding Newtonian potential is V = -MG/r, where M is the mass of the body producing the field, and G is the gravitational constant. ... we conclude that k = -2MG/c^2, and Schwarzschild's solution for the empty spacetime outside a spherical body of mass M is ..."
Foster, J., Nightingale, J. D. A short course in General Relativity, Springer-Verlag, New York, Inc., 1995.

"... the constant of integration m that has appeared ... is just the mass of the central body that is producing the gravitational field."
Dirac, P. A. M. General Theory of Relativity. Princeton Landmarks in Physics Series, Princeton University Press,
Princeton, New Jersey, 1996.


"... the quantity m_o introduced by the equation m = km_o occurs as the field-producing mass in it; we call m the gravitational radius of the matter causing the disturbance of the field."
Weyl, H. Space Time Matter, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1952.

So the astrophysical scientists on the one hand remove all matter, including sources, by setting Ric = 0, and on the other hand, by a piece of sophistry, put it back in with the play on the words "outside a body". Not only that, when they get their "Schwarzschild solution" there is no matter present (its a solution for Ric = 0), so to satisfy their sophistic "outside a body" they put mass back in, post hoc, and to do so they use Newton's expression for escape velocity. Now Newton's expression for escape velocity is a two-body relation: one body escapes from another; and so it can't appear in an alleged one-body configuration (but which is in fact a no-body situation - a universe that contains no matter, as cited in my previous post as well). Furthermore, the alleged "Schwarzschild black hole" is alone in an otherwise empty Universe, according to the astrophysical scientists (see my previous post as well), and so there is nothing present, by construction, with which it can interact. Yet the astrophysical scientists also claim that these black holes exist in multitudes, in binary systems, colliding and merging with one another and interacting with other matter. So they are black holes that mutually persist in and mutually interact in a mutual spacetime that by construction contains no matter! All alleged black hole "solutions" pertain to one alleged mass in the entire Universe, so they can't interact with any other masses, since there are no other masses present by construction. There are no known solutions to Einstein's field equations for two or more masses, there is no existence theorem by which it can even be claimed that his field equations contain latent solutions for such configurations of matter, and the Principle of Superposition does not apply in General Relativity (so matter can't be simply piled up in any given spacetime - see the citations above). Einstein himself thoughtlessly talks about "the motion of a planet" in Schwarzschild spacetime, where "M denotes the sun's mass, centrally symmetrically placed about the origin of coordinates" . Einstein, A. The Meaning of Relativity, Science Paperbacks and Methuen & Co. Ltd., 56–57, 1967.

Also, there is not one shred of physical evidence to suggest that a gravitational field can be generated by anything other than matter.

Matter cannot be present in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter, and a gravitational field can't be described by Ric = 0 since Einstein's field equations couple the gravitational field to its sources. Moreover, Schwarzschild spacetime is not a generalisation of Special Relativity - it is only a generalisation of Minkowski spacetime. There is no mapping of matter from Special Relativity into Schwarzschild spacetime. Minkowski spacetime is not Special Relativity. Special Relativity is defined in terms of the presence of matter, Minkowski spacetime it not. And the speed of light that appears in the expression for Minkowski spacetime is not a photon - it's just a speed. The astrophysical scientists insert mass post hoc into Schwarzschild spacetime after they removed it in the first place from the mathematical relations - Schwarzschild spacetime is no generalisation of Special Relativity at all. And since Ric = 0 is thus inadmissible, Einstein's field equations violate the usual conservation of energy and momentum, placing them in conflict with the experimental evidence on a deeper level, and so General Relativity fails. To save his theory from this catastrophe Einstein invented, ad hoc, his pseudo-tensor, the components of which he says are

'the "energy components” of the gravitational field' and "expresses the law of conservation of momentum and of energy for the gravitational field."
Einstein, A. The Meaning of Relativity, Science Paperbacks and Methuen & Co. Ltd., 56–57, 1967.

But Einstein's ad hoc invention does not save his theory because his pseudo-tensor implies the existence of an invariant that depends solely upon the components of the metric tensor and their first derivatives - but the pure mathematicians G. Ricci-Curbastro and T. Levi-Civita, inventors of the tensor calculus, proved in 1900 that such invariants do not exist! Thus, reductio ad absurdum, Einstein's pseudo-tensor is a meaningless concoction of mathematical symbols and everything that relies upon it fallacious such as Einstein gravitational waves.

"It is not possible to obtain an expression for the energy of the gravitational field satisfying both the conditions: (i) when added to other forms of energy the total energy is conserved, and (ii) the energy within a definite (three dimensional) region at a certain time is independent of the coordinate system. Thus, in general, gravitational energy cannot be localized. The best we can do is to use the pseudotensor, which satisfies condition (i) but not condition (ii). It gives us approximate information about gravitational energy, which in some special cases can be accurate.

"Let us consider the energy of these waves. Owing to the pseudo-tensor not being a real tensor, we do not get, in general, a clear result independent of the coordinate system. But there is one special case in which we do get a clear result; namely, when the waves are all moving in the same direction."

Dirac, P. A. M. General Theory of Relativity. Princeton Landmarks in Physics Series, Princeton University Press,
Princeton, New Jersey, 1996.


It is not I, ramparts, who has abused science. The astrophysical scientists are the abusers of science.
 
R

ramparts

Guest
Completely agree with yevaud's last two posts ;)

Harry, to clarify my post above:

Noblackholes said that the vacuum Einstein equations (which he calls "Ric = 0") are illogical, because they solve Einstein's equations using a vacuum (i.e., putting in no matter), but describe spacetimes (like black holes, or that around our Sun) that do have matter. Verbatim:

"...And I'm still waiting for the Defenders of the mainstream Realm here to prove that matter is present in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter (i.e. Ric = 0): after all, the mainstream claim that matter is present in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter...."

This is a misunderstanding of Einstein's equations of general relativity. What I was saying was that the way we explicitly put matter into the equations (by setting the Ricci tensor, or "Ric" as he calls it, to something describing the matter distribution rather than 0) only applies for spacetime points where you're actually sitting on top of matter. So if you're floating out in space around the Sun, or a black hole, then we use a vacuum to describe the spacetime at the place you are. Why? Because (ignoring your own mass) there's no matter where you are!

In essence, his misunderstanding is saying that "Ric = 0" is a spacetime that contains no matter. That is untrue - a misunderstanding of the Einstein field equations. Not that that's so bad - the Einstein field equations are pretty tricky! :D

Now I see noblackholes has responded with some sort of manifesto. I'll get to that now ;)
 
R

ramparts

Guest
noblackhole":3bx30cnc said:
Not so ramparts. The claim that Ric = 0 describes the "field outside a body" is sophistic nonsense. You have given Einstein's field equations on your posting header. The left side of the equations describes the gravitational field, manifest in the geometry (and thereby curvature) of spacetime; the right side describes the configuration of matter that causes the gravitational field. So the field equations couple the gravitational field to the matter that causes it. Einstein's field equations:

"...couple the gravitational field (contained in the curvature of spacetime) with its sources."
Foster, J., Nightingale, J. D. A short course in General Relativity, Springer-Verlag, New York, Inc., 1995.

"Since gravitation is determined by the matter present, the same must then be postulated for geometry, too. The geometry of space is not given a priori, but is only determined by matter."

Pauli, W. The Theory of Relativity, Dover Publications, Inc., New York, 1981.

"In general relativity, the stress-energy or energy-momentum tensor T^a^b acts as the source of the gravitational
field. It is related to the Einstein tensor and hence to the curvature of spacetime via the Einstein equation".

McMahon, D. Relativity Demystified, A Self-teaching guide; McGraw-Hill, New York, 2006

"Thus the equations of the gravitational field also contain the equations for the matter (material particles
and electromagnetic fields) which produces this field."

Landau, L., ____ E. The Classical Theory of Fields, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc., Reading, Massachusettes, 1951.

"Again, just as the electric field, for its part, depends upon the charges and is instrumental in producing mechanical interaction between the charges, so we must assume here that the metrical field (or, in mathematical language, the tensor with components g_{ik} is related to the material filling the world. ... we have, in following the ideas set out just above, to discover the invariant law of gravitation, according to which matter determines the components Gamma^a_{bi} of the gravitational field, and which replaces the Newtonian law of attraction in Einstein’s Theory."
Weyl, H. Space Time Matter, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1952.

"... the whole of the stress-energy tensor T" is "the source of the gravitational field."
Schutz, B. F. A first course in general relativity, Cambridge University Press, UK, 1990.

So, setting Ric = 0 eliminates all sources of a gravitational field by construction, yet the astrophysical scientists claim that this describes the "gravitational field outside a body"; their alleged "vacuum solutions". What is the source of the gravitational field "outside the body"? Well,e thereof) it must be described by a non-zero energy-momentum tensor in Einstein's field equations, as the astrop according to the very same astrophysical scientists, its the body! But if the body causes the gravitational field (i.e. a sourchysical scientists also assert (as cited above). As for the "Schwarzschild solution" in particular:[

"... the corresponding Newtonian potential is V = -MG/r, where M is the mass of the body producing the field, and G is the gravitational constant. ... we conclude that k = -2MG/c^2, and Schwarzschild's solution for the empty spacetime outside a spherical body of mass M is ..."
Foster, J., Nightingale, J. D. A short course in General Relativity, Springer-Verlag, New York, Inc., 1995.

"... the constant of integration m that has appeared ... is just the mass of the central body that is producing the gravitational field."
Dirac, P. A. M. General Theory of Relativity. Princeton Landmarks in Physics Series, Princeton University Press,
Princeton, New Jersey, 1996.


"... the quantity m_o introduced by the equation m = km_o occurs as the field-producing mass in it; we call m the gravitational radius of the matter causing the disturbance of the field."
Weyl, H. Space Time Matter, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1952.

So the astrophysical scientists on the one hand remove all matter, including sources, by setting Ric = 0, and on the other hand, by a piece of sophistry, put it back in with the play on the words "outside a body". Not only that, when they get their "Schwarzschild solution" there is no matter present (its a solution for Ric = 0), so to satisfy their sophistic "outside a body" they put mass back in, post hoc, and to do so they use Newton's expression for escape velocity. Now Newton's expression for escape velocity is a two-body relation: one body escapes from another; and so it can't appear in an alleged one-body configuration (but which is in fact a no-body situation - a universe that contains no matter, as cited in my previous post as well). Furthermore, the alleged "Schwarzschild black hole" is alone in an otherwise empty Universe, according to the astrophysical scientists (see my previous post as well), and so there is nothing present, by construction, with which it can interact. Yet the astrophysical scientists also claim that these black holes exist in multitudes, in binary systems, colliding and merging with one another and interacting with other matter. So they are black holes that mutually persist in and mutually interact in a mutual spacetime that by construction contains no matter! All alleged black hole "solutions" pertain to one alleged mass in the entire Universe, so they can't interact with any other masses, since there are no other masses present by construction. There are no known solutions to Einstein's field equations for two or more masses, there is no existence theorem by which it can even be claimed that his field equations contain latent solutions for such configurations of matter, and the Principle of Superposition does not apply in General Relativity (so matter can't be simply piled up in any given spacetime - see the citations above). Einstein himself thoughtlessly talks about "the motion of a planet" in Schwarzschild spacetime, where "M denotes the sun's mass, centrally symmetrically placed about the origin of coordinates" . Einstein, A. The Meaning of Relativity, Science Paperbacks and Methuen & Co. Ltd., 56–57, 1967.

Also, there is not one shred of physical evidence to suggest that a gravitational field can be generated by anything other than matter.

Matter cannot be present in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter, and a gravitational field can't be described by Ric = 0 since Einstein's field equations couple the gravitational field to its sources. Moreover, Schwarzschild spacetime is not a generalisation of Special Relativity - it is only a generalisation of Minkowski spacetime. There is no mapping of matter from Special Relativity into Schwarzschild spacetime. Minkowski spacetime is not Special Relativity. Special Relativity is defined in terms of the presence of matter, Minkowski spacetime it not. And the speed of light that appears in the expression for Minkowski spacetime is not a photon - it's just a speed. The astrophysical scientists insert mass post hoc into Schwarzschild spacetime after they removed it in the first place from the mathematical relations - Schwarzschild spacetime is no generalisation of Special Relativity at all. And since Ric = 0 is thus inadmissible, Einstein's field equations violate the usual conservation of energy and momentum, placing them in conflict with the experimental evidence on a deeper level, and so General Relativity fails. To save his theory from this catastrophe Einstein invented, ad hoc, his pseudo-tensor, the components of which he says are

'the "energy components” of the gravitational field' and "expresses the law of conservation of momentum and of energy for the gravitational field."
Einstein, A. The Meaning of Relativity, Science Paperbacks and Methuen & Co. Ltd., 56–57, 1967.

But Einstein's ad hoc invention does not save his theory because his pseudo-tensor implies the existence of an invariant that depends solely upon the components of the metric tensor and their first derivatives - but the pure mathematicians G. Ricci-Curbastro and T. Levi-Civita, inventors of the tensor calculus, proved in 1900 that such invariants do not exist! Thus, reductio ad absurdum, Einstein's pseudo-tensor is a meaningless concoction of mathematical symbols and everything that relies upon it fallacious such as Einstein gravitational waves.

"It is not possible to obtain an expression for the energy of the gravitational field satisfying both the conditions: (i) when added to other forms of energy the total energy is conserved, and (ii) the energy within a definite (three dimensional) region at a certain time is independent of the coordinate system. Thus, in general, gravitational energy cannot be localized. The best we can do is to use the pseudotensor, which satisfies condition (i) but not condition (ii). It gives us approximate information about gravitational energy, which in some special cases can be accurate.

"Let us consider the energy of these waves. Owing to the pseudo-tensor not being a real tensor, we do not get, in general, a clear result independent of the coordinate system. But there is one special case in which we do get a clear result; namely, when the waves are all moving in the same direction."

Dirac, P. A. M. General Theory of Relativity. Princeton Landmarks in Physics Series, Princeton University Press,
Princeton, New Jersey, 1996.


It is not I, ramparts, who has abused science. The astrophysical scientists are the abusers of science.

Phew! That is quite a manifesto there.

As I've said, this is a misunderstanding. Let's look, for example, at the Sun. The Sun's gravitational field is described by the Kerr metric to a reasonable order (ignoring the asymmetry of the Sun, other planets, etc.), but as I said, only outside the Sun. Why? Let's dig deeper into the math.

Let's rewrite the Einstein equations as:

R_{uv} = 8 pi G (T_{uv} - 1/2 T g_{uv})

Where T is the trace of the stress-energy tensor; you can derive this easily by taking the trace of the Einstein equations.

So the Ricci tensor is dependent on the stress-energy tensor (and its trace), as you've said. But both of these are actually tensor fields - that is, they are a different tensor at each point in spacetime. That's why we write these things as functions of our spacetime coordinates. Now, let's say we use spherical coordinates to describe the Sun, x^u = {t,r,theta,phi}. For r>r_sun (that is, for points outside the Sun), the stress energy tensor is zero. So accordingly, the Ricci tensor must be zero. It's as simple as that.

Now, inside the Sun (r < r_sun), the stress-energy tensor is clearly non-zero, and so the Kerr metric, derived for a vacuum, doesn't apply.

The point is, the Einstein equations hold at each point in spacetime. Outside the Sun - that is, when the r coordinate is greater than the radius of the Sun - the stress-energy tensor is zero, since there isn't any matter at that point. Accordingly, at that point the Ricci tensor is zero.
 
H

harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzz

Ramparts said

The point is, the Einstein equations hold at each point in spacetime. Outside the Sun - that is, when the r coordinate is greater than the radius of the Sun - the stress-energy tensor is zero, since there isn't any matter at that point. Accordingly, at that point the Ricci tensor is zero.

So! what does that mean?

This link may be of interest it was just emailed to me: I have to read it myself.
Just sharing the link. Sorry it maybe a waste of time.

Geometrization of metric boundary data for Einstein’s equations

Jeffrey Winicour
(Submitted on 2 Apr 2009)

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/090 ... 0414v1.pdf
 
N

noblackhole

Guest
ramparts":1wqrta1m said:
Phew! That is quite a manifesto there.

As I've said, this is a misunderstanding. Let's look, for example, at the Sun. The Sun's gravitational field is described by the Kerr metric to a reasonable order (ignoring the asymmetry of the Sun, other planets, etc.), but as I said, only outside the Sun. Why? Let's dig deeper into the math.

Let's rewrite the Einstein equations as:

R_{uv} = 8 pi G (T_{uv} - 1/2 T g_{uv})

Where T is the trace of the stress-energy tensor; you can derive this easily by taking the trace of the Einstein equations.

So the Ricci tensor is dependent on the stress-energy tensor (and its trace), as you've said. But both of these are actually tensor fields - that is, they are a different tensor at each point in spacetime. That's why we write these things as functions of our spacetime coordinates. Now, let's say we use spherical coordinates to describe the Sun, x^u = {t,r,theta,phi}. For r>r_sun (that is, for points outside the Sun), the stress energy tensor is zero. So accordingly, the Ricci tensor must be zero. It's as simple as that.

Now, inside the Sun (r < r_sun), the stress-energy tensor is clearly non-zero, and so the Kerr metric, derived for a vacuum, doesn't apply.

The point is, the Einstein equations hold at each point in spacetime. Outside the Sun - that is, when the r coordinate is greater than the radius of the Sun - the stress-energy tensor is zero, since there isn't any matter at that point. Accordingly, at that point the Ricci tensor is zero.

No ramparts that doesn't help you and the astrophysical magicians one iota. You're talking nonsense. You might as well try to convince everybody here that white is black. The fact is that Ric = 0 eliminates sources by construction (see my previous citations). If Ric = 0 there is no matter present by construction. The astrophysical scientists nonetheless claim for the "Schwarzschild solution" that the gravitational field "outside a body" is caused by that body, which they have eliminated from the equations in the first place. There is no transformation of matter from Minkowski spacetime into Schwarzschild spacetime. Minkowski spacetime is not Special Relativity. Thus, when the astrophysical scientists get their line-element for Schwarzschild spacetime there is no matter present, so they simply stick in mass by using Newton's two-body relation for escape velocity in an alleged one-body situation (which is in fact a no-body situation). Schwarzschild spacetime is not a generalization of Special Relativity at all.

"By a curious coincidence, the limit Rs discovered by Laplace is exactly the same that general relativity gives for the occurrence of the trapped surface around a spherical mass."
Chandrasekhar, S. The increasing role of general relativity in astronomy, The Observatory, 92, 168, 1972.

Mr. Chandrasekhar is telling tales. There is no coincidence at all, because the astrophysical magicians deliberately put it in to make it so, into a solution for a spacetime that by construction contains no sources and in fact no matter at all.

"Black holes were first discovered as purely mathematical solutions of Einstein’s field equations. This solution, the Schwarzschild black hole, is a nonlinear solution of the Einstein equations of General Relativity. It contains no matter, and exists forever in an asymptotically flat space-time."
DICTIONARY OF GEOPHYSICS, ASTROPHYSICS, and ASTRONOMY, Edited by Richard A. Matzner, CRC
Press LLC,, Boca Raton, USA, 2001,

http://www.deu.edu.tr/userweb/emre....of Geophysics, Astrophysics and Astronomy.pdf

Here is a thoughtless contention by Mr. Hawking:

"Also, suppose two black holes collided and merged together to form a single black hole. Then the area of the event horizon of the final black hole would be greater than the sum of the areas of the event horizons of the original black holes."
Hawking, S. W. The Theory of Everything, The Origin and Fate of the Universe; New Millennium Press, Beverly Hills,
CA., 2002.


But all alleged black hole solutions pertain to one mass in the entire universe. There are no known solutions to Einstein's field equations for two or more masses and no existence theorem by which it can even be claimed that his field equations contain latent solutions for such configurations of matter. So upon what solution to the field equations does Hawking rely for his claim. None! He just made it up, out of thin air - he's a magician. So is Einstein, who too talks of planetary motions around the sun in Schwarzschild spacetime in a gravitational field caused by the sun (see my previous post for Einstein's claims); but it's a spacetime which by construction contains no matter and has no gravitational sources.

Here is another magician who conjures up matter from nothing in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter:

"In considering the energy that could be released by interactions with black holes, a theorem of Hawking is useful. Hawking's theorem states that in the interactions involving black holes, the total surface area of the boundaries of the black holes can never decrease; it can at best remain unchanged (if the conditions are stationary)."

"Imagine two spherical (Schwarzschild) black holes, each of mass 1/2 M, coalescing to form a single black hole; and let
the black hole that is eventually left be, again, spherical and have a mass M."

Chandrasekhar, S. The increasing role of general relativity in astronomy, The Observatory, 92, 168, 1972.

Interesting. Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is a massive source present causing the gravitational field outside a Schwarzschild blackhole. Then the spacetime "outside" this black hole contains no matter by construction. Similarly the spacetime outside the other alleged black hole contains no matter by construction. So the first black hole is present in the spacetime of the second black hole whose spacetime by construction contains no matter. Similarly the second black hole is present in the spacetime of the first black hole whose spacetime by construction contains no matter. Thus, the two black holes mutually persist in and mutually interact in a mutual spacetime that by construction contains no matter! It's unbridled nonsense.

And yet another magician here:

"... Hawking’s area theorem: in any physical process involving a horizon, the area of the horizon cannot decrease in time. ... This fundamental theorem has the result that, while two black holes can collide and coalesce, a single black hole can never bifurcate spontaneously into two smaller ones.

"Black holes produced by supernovae would be much harder to observe unless they were part of a binary system which survived the explosion and in which the other star was not so highly evolved."

Schutz, B. F. A first course in general relativity, Cambridge University Press, UK, 1990.

Also, according to Einstein and his followers, his Principle of Equivalence and his laws of Special Relativity must manifest in sufficiently small regions of his gravitational field, and these regions can be located anywhere in his gravitational field. Let's see what Einstein says:

"Let now K be an inertial system. Masses which are sufficiently far from each other and from other bodies are then, with respect to K, free from acceleration. We shall also refer these masses to a system of co-ordinates K', uniformly accelerated with respect to K. Relatively to K' all the masses have equal and parallel accelerations; with respect to K' they behave just as if a gravitational field were present and K’ were unaccelerated. Overlooking for the present the question as to the 'cause' of such a gravitational field, which will occupy us later, there is nothing to prevent our conceiving this gravitational field as real, that is, the conception that K' is 'at rest' and a gravitational field is present we may consider as equivalent to the conception that only K is an ‘allowable’ system of co-ordinates and no gravitational field is present. The assumption of the complete physical equivalence of the systems of coordinates, K and K', we call the ‘principle of equivalence’; this principle is evidently intimately connected with the law of the equality between the inert and the gravitational mass, and signifies an extension of the principle of relativity to co-ordinate systems which are in non-uniform motion relatively to each other. In fact, through this conception we arrive at the unity of the nature of inertia and gravitation. For, according to our way of looking at it, the same masses may appear to be either under the action of inertia alone (with respect to K) or under the combined action of inertia and gravitation (with respect to K').

"Stated more exactly, there are finite regions, where, with respect to a suitably chosen space of reference, material particles move freely without acceleration, and in which the laws of special relativity, which have been developed above, hold with remarkable accuracy."

Einstein, A. The Meaning of Relativity, Science Paperbacks and Methuen & Co. Ltd., 56–57, 1967.

Here are the same claims made by some other astrophysical scientists:

"We may incorporate these ideas into the principle of equivalence, which is this: In a freely falling (nonrotating) laboratory occupying a small region of spacetime, the laws of physics are the laws of special relativity.”
Foster, J., Nightingale, J. D. A short course in General Relativity, Springer-Verlag, New York, Inc., 1995.

"We can think of the physical realization of the local coordinate system Ko in terms of a freely floating, sufficiently small, box which is not subjected to any external forces apart from gravity, and which is falling under the influence of the latter. ... It is evidently natural to assume that the special theory of relativity should remain valid in Ko ."
Pauli, W. The Theory of Relativity, Dover Publications, Inc., New York, 1981.

"General Relativity requires more than one free-float frame."
Taylor E. F. and Wheeler J. A. Exploring Black Holes — Introduction to General Relativity, Addison Wesley Longman, 2000 (in draft).

"Near every event in spacetime, in a sufficiently small neighborhood, in every freely falling reference frame all phenomena (including gravitational ones) are exactly as they are in the absence of external gravitational sources."
DICTIONARY OF GEOPHYSICS, ASTROPHYSICS, and ASTRONOMY, Edited by Richard A. Matzner, CRC
Press LLC,, Boca Raton, USA, 2001,

http://www.deu.edu.tr/userweb/emre....of Geophysics, Astrophysics and Astronomy.pdf

The Principle of Equivalence and the laws of Special Relativity are defined in terms of the a priori presence of multiple arbitrarily large finite masses, and so they can't manifest in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter. But Ric = 0 is a spacetime that by construction contains no matter. Consequently Ric = 0 does not satisfy as a description of Einstein's gravitational field, and so it is inadmissible. Schwarzschild spacetime is not a generalization of Special Relativity. It immediately follows that Einstein's field equations violate the usual conservation of energy and momentum (see my previous posts) and so General Relativity fails. Einstein's ad hoc invention of his pseudo-tensor to avoid this catastrophe can't save his theory since it is a meaningless concoction of mathematical symbols (see my previous post).

ramparts, you can't get away with ignoring the astrophysical scientists I have cited. Their claims are the Standard Modeller claims, and anybody here can verify them for themselves in any textbook on the subject. Their claims are contradictory or in violation of mathematics or both. They are demonstrably false.

I still await the Defenders of the Realm here to prove that matter is present in a spacetime that by construction contains no matter. I contend that it can't be done without the magic of the astrophysical scientists.

And like the astrophysical magicians ramparts you talk of r in the Schwarzschild spacetime as if it is radial distance, which you apply to the sun. But the irrefutable fact is that this r is not even a distance let alone a radial one in Schwarzschild spacetime. The "Schwarzschild radius" is therefore not the radius of anything in Schwarzschild spacetime. That is another fantasy pulled out of the magician's hat by the astrophysical scientists, using Newton's two-body expression for escape velocity.

The astrophysical magicians are up the creek without a paddle. They are talking nonsense. LIGO and LISA are destined to detect nothing - they've detected nothing. Gravity Probe B was destined to detect nothing - it detected nothing. WMAP and COBE have not produced any valid scientific data beyond the detection of a dipole. They have not detected the alleged CMB at all. Prof. Robitaille has proven beyond doubt that the WMAP and COBE teams have deliberately doctored their data sets to get a desired outcome. Crothers has proven General Relativity does not predict black holes at all, and that Einstein's field equations violate the usual conservation of energy and momentum.
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzz

I'm learning from you noblackhole. Good on you, fantastic explanation.

I have a few more years of reading before my head gets around every corner or some corners particularly the maths and physics side. The observations are the most fun, its good to have fun.

At this moment I'm reading papers on compact matter and the cyclic processes that take place in star formation and AGN.

Love to hear your thoughts.

Have a nice day
 
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ramparts

Guest
noblackhole, I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with you here. You claimed something, I responded to it. I would expect the same back. So tell me, in my last post, where the logic is wrong. For points outside (for example) the Sun, the stress-energy tensor is zero, so the Ricci tensor must be as well. What part of that is mistaken?

Now, I'll respond to your other points, but I will ask that in return you explain very clearly why you disagree with the logic above. I would assume that you're on this site to discuss science, so let's have a discussion, rather than a shouting match.

Also, please stop quoting books at me. Besides all the space it takes up, I've spent a lot of time studying GR myself, reading papers and working out problems, and I know very well everything you're quoting. Rather than pull quotes out of books, why not look at the math? Math is far clearer than words ;) I presented you with a mathematical argument, now go ahead and use math to show me why it's wrong.

As for the other points...

noblackhole":3jz4dgle said:
No ramparts that doesn't help you and the astrophysical magicians one iota. You're talking nonsense. You might as well try to convince everybody here that white is black. The fact is that Ric = 0 eliminates sources by construction (see my previous citations). If Ric = 0 there is no matter present by construction.

I just explained to you why that's not true - as I said above, please explain to me why the logic I used is wrong. This is very simple - when you're outside a distribution of matter, the stress-energy tensor at that point is zero. So, then, must the Ricci tensor.

The astrophysical scientists nonetheless claim for the "Schwarzschild solution" that the gravitational field "outside a body" is caused by that body, which they have eliminated from the equations in the first place. There is no transformation of matter from Minkowski spacetime into Schwarzschild spacetime.

Well, no. Minkowski spacetime and Schwarzschild spacetimes are different things. That being said, Minkowski spacetime is asymptotically flat, meaning if you set the mass to zero, or take r to be very very large, it becomes Minkowski spacetime

Minkowski spacetime is not Special Relativity. Thus, when the astrophysical scientists get their line-element for Schwarzschild spacetime there is no matter present, so they simply stick in mass by using Newton's two-body relation for escape velocity in an alleged one-body situation (which is in fact a no-body situation). Schwarzschild spacetime is not a generalization of Special Relativity at all.

They don't use the escape velocity at all. They use the gravitational potential, which only requires one body to exist. You seem to be somewhat well-read in GR, which is great, so take a look at one of those books. Even if you disagree with the conclusions, at least make sure you know what was done. In the weak field limit, the time-time component of the metric is related to the gravitational potential, not the escape velocity.

But all alleged black hole solutions pertain to one mass in the entire universe. There are no known solutions to Einstein's field equations for two or more masses and no existence theorem by which it can even be claimed that his field equations contain latent solutions for such configurations of matter. So upon what solution to the field equations does Hawking rely for his claim. None! He just made it up, out of thin air - he's a magician. So is Einstein, who too talks of planetary motions around the sun in Schwarzschild spacetime in a gravitational field caused by the sun (see my previous post for Einstein's claims); but it's a spacetime which by construction contains no matter and has no gravitational sources.

It's definitely true that Einstein's equations haven't been (and prbably can't be) solved exactly for a two-body system. As I said in my last post, the Kerr metric is not perfect for describing spacetime around our Sun, because there's also gravity from other planets, other stars, galaxies, etc. But near the Sun, the Sun's gravity is the major contributor. At Alpha Centauri, that breaks down :lol:

It's the same with Newtonian gravity. The Earth feels gravity from the moon, Mars, Venus, you, me, and everything else, but by far the strongest field it experiences is that of the Sun, so we can effectively ignore all the other contributions when, for example, solving the Earth's orbit.

And like the astrophysical magicians ramparts you talk of r in the Schwarzschild spacetime as if it is radial distance, which you apply to the sun. But the irrefutable fact is that this r is not even a distance let alone a radial one in Schwarzschild spacetime. The "Schwarzschild radius" is therefore not the radius of anything in Schwarzschild spacetime. That is another fantasy pulled out of the magician's hat by the astrophysical scientists, using Newton's two-body expression for escape velocity.

I think you're confusing r in a spherical coordinate system and the Schwarzschild radius. The r I talked about is a radial distance - it's a coordinate used to describe points in spacetime. Surely you'd agree we can do that, right? We can make a spherical coordinate system, and center it at the center of the Sun. The coordinate r is a point's distance from that origin. Nothing to do with the Schwarzschild radius.

The astrophysical magicians are up the creek without a paddle. They are talking nonsense. LIGO and LISA are destined to detect nothing - they've detected nothing. Gravity Probe B was destined to detect nothing - it detected nothing.

Well, I would imagine LIGO and LISA haven't detected anything - LIGO's still collecting and analyzing data, and LISA hasn't even been built yet :lol: Meanwhile, I wonder if you have friends at Stanford who have told you that Gravity Probe B hasn't detected anything, since they're still analyzing the data over there ;)

Honestly, NBH, I'm puzzled as to why you're stuck on this black hole/vacuum thing. It's very easy to solve Einstein's equations in the presence of a matter distribution like the Sun's. Why would the "astrophysical magicians" set up some giant conspiracy to use invalid vacuum solutions when they can easily do what you claim is the right way?
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzz

Looks like I have to brush up on my maths.

You two are having so much fun.

Ramparts I thought you were just a farm boy, I have to say that you can dish it out, good on ya mate.
 
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SpeedFreek

Guest
harrycostas":24bermi0 said:
Looks like I have to brush up on my maths.

You will need an understanding of differential geometry to properly understand these arguments. I do not have that understanding, which I why I cited the people who do.
 
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csmyth3025

Guest
Speedfreek wrote:

"...You will need an understanding of differential geometry to properly understand these arguments..."

It's interesting that your comment is almost exactly what ramparts advised when he responded to my query about what Ric=0 means. He explained it to the extent that I might be able to understand it, but that explanation was necessarily superficial.

You and I are in much the same boat. Rather than trying to pick one side or the other based on claims made by "experts" with opposing views using math that I totally don't understand, I've decided to "hit the books". One day I hope to be able to follow the logic (and math) of these claims and be able to decide for myself what makes sense and what doesn't.

You may want to do the same.

Chris
 
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ramparts

Guest
Chris, while I think it's great you want to learn more about the math, don't labor under the illusion that there are experts with opposing views on this question ;) The experts will tell you what I'm telling you, while noblackhole and some guy with a website will tell you otherwise. This is a discussion on an internet forum, not an important debate in the great world of physics.

As for learning more about GR quantitatively, the math behind even the basics of GR is pretty forbidding, even for physics undergraduates (most of whom don't learn this stuff until grad school). The most essential thing is a very solid understanding of calculus. Linear algebra (in particular, the study of vectors and matrices) is also pretty important. It's helpful to have a background in classical physics (like mechanics and E&M), but I think the more important thing is to have a familiarity with how physics is done, rather than what the physics actually says. My earlier physics classes were more important, when it came to GR, for teaching me how to solve problems, than for the facts.

Then, I'd recommend looking around for an intro GR textbook, aimed for undergraduates. I'm a big fan of Sean Carroll's book, and I've heard that Hartle's book is a good intro even more geared for beginners. Don't expect to pick up everything, but work through it slowly, understanding each step of the way the mathematical underpinnings being laid out.

And the most important part whenever reading any physics book - do the problems! ;) I didn't get the first thing about tensor calculus and index gymnastics and all the other fun things of GR's math until after I'd worked out quite a few problems. I loved my GR class, but I spent quite a few hours every week working through until I really started understanding it. Just reading can only get you so far.

Good luck!
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzzz

Thank you Speedfrek and Ramparts

Years gone by I used to be a maths freek and I know what it takes to get back on the horse, that's what I'm afraid of.

Again thank you for the direction.

I think I'm trying to understand what the point of discussion is.
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzz


It takes a moderator to point us in the right point.
 
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ramparts

Guest
That's why we have a mod :) I don't think the point here is to discuss an important point of physics - as I said, this is not something experts worry about, as it's just a matter of being careful with your math. The point is rather to inspire all of us to learn more about physics. I, for one, have spent a bit more time with my favorite GR book since posting here, and more than one person has stated their desire to start learning a bit more of the nuts and bolts as well... so this thread sounds like a success to me!
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzzz

Ramparts said

That's why we have a mod I don't think the point here is to discuss an important point of physics - as I said, this is not something experts worry about, as it's just a matter of being careful with your math. The point is rather to inspire all of us to learn more about physics. I, for one, have spent a bit more time with my favorite GR book since posting here, and more than one person has stated their desire to start learning a bit more of the nuts and bolts as well... so this thread sounds like a success to me!

Well said.

It nice to meet nice people.

My mentor has directed me to read papers for the next two years and as I'm reading I sometimes post and share the reading hoping that someone will discuss.

I do not post those links to make me look smart, I know I'm not and the more I read the less smart I feel, still its alot of fun and discovery.
 
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harrycostas

Guest
G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

Hello yevaud

Tell me why is your name green and ours are black.

===============

On another subject if a singularity cannot be achieved than what we do have is compact matter that mimics a black with trapped Horizon. We than apply the properties of compact matter, whether it is Neutron matter, Quark or Nutrino matter and explain their growth through contraction of matter into a degenerate form and reduction of size by the formation of jets via the double layer property of plasma that some call the reconnection of magnetic fields that ejects degenerate matter that reforms nrmal matter.

This process would explain many issues and can be resolved by normal astrophysics without the need for dark matter and dark energy or the expansion theory.

It could also explain the redshift data faking a recession of a galaxy when all it was was the ejection of matter from giant jets.

Such as
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/3 ... c438_radio
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/07_rel ... 53007.html
Galaxy Cluster Takes It to the Extreme
Great little movie
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/3 ... nim_sm.mov
 
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ramparts

Guest
harrycostas":1z69989y said:
G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

Hello yevaud

Tell me why is your name green and ours are black.

I believe he is one of those godlike beings that we mere mortals know only as "mods."

On another subject if a singularity cannot be achieved than what we do have is compact matter that mimics a black with trapped Horizon. We than apply the properties of compact matter, whether it is Neutron matter, Quark or Nutrino matter and explain their growth through contraction of matter into a degenerate form and reduction of size by the formation of jets via the double layer property of plasma that some call the reconnection of magnetic fields that ejects degenerate matter that reforms nrmal matter.

This process would explain many issues and can be resolved by normal astrophysics without the need for dark matter and dark energy or the expansion theory.

It could also explain the redshift data faking a recession of a galaxy when all it was was the ejection of matter from giant jets.

I fail to see how the first paragraph or the links you put at the end would explain all the things you say they would - could you be so kind as to elaborate?
 
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