Origins of the Universe, Big Bang or No Bang.

[SpeedFreek]

Point 5 has an interesting point in recycling.

If, and only if, naked singularities (i.e. singularities without event horizons) exist at the end of the universe. How does this relate to origins of the universe?

 

[vladdrac]

In the end, would it not be funny if cosmology decided that The Big Bang was just one of an infinite number of 'Bangs' happening pretty much regularly across an infinite number of dimensions?

 

[harrycostas]

G'day

Hello Speedfreak

Thats the point, a recycling universe does not need a Bang and therfore no origin.


Hello viaddrac.

I agree with your logic. Infinite bangs of contraction and expansion. We see this in galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

 

[SpeedFreek]

Hello Speedfreak

Thats the point, a recycling universe does not need a Bang and therfore no origin.

I think you should re-read point 5 and its "interesting point in recycling".

(5) Will all matter in the universe eventually fall into black holes? Answer: Probably "no", because "naked" compact objects, if they do exist with radii smaller than the radii of event horizons for their masses but are not enclosed by event horizons, can rescue the universe from an eternal death by re-cycling out the matter previously accreted into astrophysical black holes.

It speaks of rescuing the universe from an eternal death by re-cycling out the matter previously accreted into black holes. In other words, it speaks of a mechanism to allow our universe to continue, after it has reached the phase where all the matter is contained in black holes which are spread throughout the universe. If this matter is somehow brought back from those black holes, it will be spread across what will then be an incredibly large universe, when compared to the size of the universe as we know it today.

There is no mention of recycling the universe itself - i.e. explaining how our universe seems to have been a lot hotter and denser in the past. All it is talking about is an alternative mechanism to allow the universe to continue after the black hole epoch. If you want to consider the matter recycled from each separate black hole as a new universe (we have no mechanism that allows all the matter in the universe to merge into one black hole) then the loop cannot go on forever, as each reiteration gets exponentially smaller!

 

[csmyth3025]

Hello Speedfreak

Thats the point, a recycling universe does not need a Bang and therfore no origin.

I think you should re-read point 5 and its "interesting point in recycling".

(5) Will all matter in the universe eventually fall into black holes? Answer: Probably "no", because "naked" compact objects, if they do exist with radii smaller than the radii of event horizons for their masses but are not enclosed by event horizons, can rescue the universe from an eternal death by re-cycling out the matter previously accreted into astrophysical black holes.

It speaks of rescuing the universe from an eternal death by re-cycling out the matter previously accreted into black holes...

Are these "naked" compact objects the so-called "white holes" that some have proposed? What is the mechanism by which they're able to "...[recycle] out the matter previously accreted into astrophysical black holes..."? What's the difference between an astrophysical black hole and a regular black hole?

Chris

 

[ramparts]

A naked black hole is one with a singularity but no event horizon - a very quickly rotating black hole, for example, will have a naked singularity.

An astrophysical black hole is a realistic black hole, as we'd find in astrophysics. For example, charged black holes are possible in theory, but we don't expect astrophysical black holes to be charged because they'd quickly attract opposite charges and neutralize out.

 

[vladdrac]

What if the 'stuff' of space time was like water on a sheet broken into droplets only in this case?. Space / Time a 'perfect fluid' which produces infinite random vortices that create infinite 'bangs'. Space / Time is an infinite superfluid?

 

[SpeedFreek]

What if my grandmother was a bicycle?

If space-time were like water droplets on a sheet, then what is the sheet?
If space-time were like a perfect fluid (which is how it is treated in a lot of cosmological models, but with no sheet!) then what would cause it to break into droplets?
What would cause the infinite random vortices in a perfect fluid?
Why infinite?

 

[csmyth3025]

A naked black hole is one with a singularity but no event horizon - a very quickly rotating black hole, for example, will have a naked singularity.

An astrophysical black hole is a realistic black hole, as we'd find in astrophysics. For example, charged black holes are possible in theory, but we don't expect astrophysical black holes to be charged because they'd quickly attract opposite charges and neutralize out.

Okay, a charged black hole is an extremely unlikely (if not imposible) astrophysical object - whereas a rotating black hole most probably exists in nature. Indeed, as I understand it, just about all black holes are believed to have some rotational component.

This leads to two questions: First, is the rotational speed required for a black hole to become "naked" considered to be reasonably achievable in nature? Second, if such compact objects do exist, is there any known mechanism by which they can "recycle out" the matter and energy they've consumed?

Chris

 

[ramparts]

There is a critical value of a black hole's rotational angular momentum past which the singularity becomes naked. We've been able to measure the rotations of several astrophysical black holes and some of them approach that value closely, but none of them exceed it. Theoretical research (including some done by a friend of mine last summer) suggests that black holes gaining angular momentum by the usual route - through accretion of surrounding matter - have an upper limit to their rotation which is just under this critical value.

There is no known mechanism for recycling matter out, although white holes (which would do this) are allowed by the mathematics of general relativity.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day

There is a general statement that there is no known mechanism that allows for recycling.

One may need to look a supersymmetry

Chiral Symmetry Breaking 2010
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AN ... /0/all/0/1

and the works by

Fukushima Kenji
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

and

Tetsuo Hatsuda
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

Nature provides for cyclic processes or else we would end up dead.

 

[origin]

G'day

There is a general statement that there is no known mechanism that allows for recycling.

One may need to look a supersymmetry

Chiral Symmetry Breaking 2010
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AN ... /0/all/0/1

and the works by

____ Kenji
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

and

Tetsuo Hatsuda
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

Nature provides for cyclic processes or else we would end up dead.

And so we begin the phase of the random link generator...

 

[csmyth3025]

G'day

There is a general statement that there is no known mechanism that allows for recycling.

One may need to look a supersymmetry

Chiral Symmetry Breaking 2010
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AN ... /0/all/0/1

and the works by

____ Kenji
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

and

Tetsuo Hatsuda
http://aps.arxiv.org/find/hep-ph/1/au:+ ... /0/all/0/1

Nature provides for cyclic processes or else we would end up dead.

Harry,

I can't make heads or tails out of the links you provided. Can you explain how any of it relates to recycling of matter or energy?

Chris

 

[MeteorWayne]

In fact, harrycostas, you are now required to explain how each of these links is related to the current discussion.

Moderator Meteor Wayne

 

[vladdrac]

Hey!, I'm groping :lol:

What if my grandmother was a bicycle?

If space-time were like water droplets on a sheet, then what is the sheet?
If space-time were like a perfect fluid (which is how it is treated in a lot of cosmological models, but with no sheet!) then what would cause it to break into droplets?
What would cause the infinite random vortices in a perfect fluid?
Why infinite?

 

[vladdrac]

I once saw a video of an experiment with a 'vat' of super fluid. Every so often, on the surface of the fluid, a little maelstrom would appear, and move across the surface of the fluid. No explanation was offered for this phenomenon. If Space Time is an 'infinite' super fluid I can see it producing its own version of the little maelstroms. Better yet, Google Swarzchildes (sp) Graphic of a solution to one of Einstiens problems. It looks like an hour glass sandwiched between two plains...anyway. Anyway....what happens at the narrowest part of the hour glass is a universe. I guess thats why one theory says universes pop up like "bubbles" in a champagne glass. In this infinite, throughout its dimensions, super fluid, the little maelstroms come out "bubbles". Maybe their popping is what we call The Big Bang?

 

[ramparts]

Harry -

Those are some very interesting papers, however, their conclusions are wrong. Do a search for "goldstone bosons 2010" and you'll see what I mean:

http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AND+20 ... /0/all/0/1

If you haven't read them already, the following papers are also of interest:

Joao Magueijo:
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0703781

A. Fufza:
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0702478

S. V. Ketov:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.3630

The quantum condensate clearly restricts cyclic processes.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day

I Gave those links as information.

It may give you some understanding of what happens to ultra dense nuclear matter and the possible phases and their ability to form dilatons that eject nuclear matter. This is not a new idea its been around form some time.

It is this process that allows matter to be recycled.

Normal matter undergoes phases changes at the core of compact objects to Neutron matter and so on.

The ability for deconfined matter to reform into normal matter can be explained by quantum memory.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.5299
Thermodynamics of dense matter in chiral approaches

Authors: Chihiro Sasaki
(Submitted on 29 Apr 2010)

Abstract: We discuss phases in dense hadronic and quark matter from chiral model approaches. Within PNJL models the phase diagram for various number of colors $N_c$ is studied. How phases are constrained in quantum field theories are also discussed along with the anomaly matching. An exotic phase with unbroken center symmetry of chiral group has a characteristic feature in the thermodynamics, which can be interpreted as one realization of the quarkyonic phase in QCD for $N_c=3$.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day Rampart

You said

The quantum condensate clearly restricts cyclic processes.

You are misaken. Do a bit of research.

 

[ramparts]

Hi Harry

You said

You are misaken. Do a bit of research.

I am not. You are mistaken. I have done my research; please do yours. Please see the links in my last post.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day Ramparts

Please define quantum condensate.

I want to know what you think.

 

[harrycostas]

G'day Ramparts

Please read wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... te&button=

 

[harrycostas]

G'day

I will take it step by step

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_expectation_value
Vacuum expectation value

In quantum field theory the vacuum expectation value (also called condensate or simply VEV) of an operator is its average, expected value in the vacuum. The vacuum expectation value of an operator O is usually denoted by . One of the best known examples of the vacuum expectation value of an operator leading to a physical effect is the Casimir effect.

This concept is important for working with correlation functions in quantum field theory. It is also important in spontaneous symmetry breaking. Examples are:

The Higgs field has a vacuum expectation value of 246 GeV. This nonzero value allows the Higgs mechanism to work.
The chiral condensate in Quantum chromodynamics gives a large effective mass to quarks, and distinguishes between phases of quark matter.
The gluon condensate in Quantum chromodynamics may be partly responsible for masses of hadrons.
The observed Lorentz invariance of space-time allows only the formation of condensates which are Lorentz scalars and have vanishing charge. Thus fermion condensates must be of the form , where ψ is the fermion field. Similarly a tensor field, Gμν, can only have a scalar expectation value such as .

In some vacua of string theory, however, non-scalar condensates are found. If these describe our universe, then Lorentz symmetry violation may be observable.

 

[ramparts]

Hi Harry. You're on the right track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermionic_condensate
Fermionic condensate

A fermionic condensate is a superfluid phase formed by fermionic particles at low temperatures. It is closely related to the Bose-Einstein condensate, a superfluid phase formed by bosonic atoms under similar conditions. Unlike the Bose-Einstein condensates, fermionic condensates are formed using fermions instead of bosons. The earliest recognized fermionic condensate described the state of electrons in a superconductor; the physics of other examples including recent work with fermionic atoms is analogous. The first atomic fermionic condensate was created by Deborah S. Jin in 2003. A chiral condensate is an example of a fermionic condensate that appears in theories of massless fermions with chiral symmetry breaking.

QCD
In quantum chromodynamics (QCD) the chiral condensate is also called the quark condensate. This property of the QCD vacuum is partly responsible for giving masses to hadrons (along with other condensates like the gluon condensate).
In an approximate version of QCD, which has vanishing quark masses for N quark flavours, there is an exact chiral SU(N)xSU(N) symmetry of the theory. The QCD vacuum breaks this symmetry to SU(N) by forming a quark condensate. The quark condensate is therefore an order parameter of transitions between several phases of quark matter in this limit.
This is very similar to the BCS theory of superconductivity. The Cooper pairs are analogous to the pseudoscalar mesons. However, the vacuum carries no charge. Hence all the gauge symmetries are unbroken. Corrections for the masses of the quarks can be incorporated using chiral perturbation theory.

 

[csmyth3025]

Hi Harry. You're on the right track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermionic_condensate
Fermionic condensate

This article on fermionic condensate is very interesting, but I'm having difficulty understanding how it relates to the recycling of matter in general and specifically the recycling of matter from a "naked singularity".

Chris