Perseverance Mars rover finds 'one-of-a-kind treasure' on Red Planet's Silver Mountain

[Admin]

NASA's Perseverance Mars rover found a 'one-of-a-kind treasure' on the rim of Jezero Crater, a rock that could help reveal the ancient history of the Red Planet.

Perseverance Mars rover finds 'one-of-a-kind treasure' on Red Planet's Silver Mountain : Read more

 

[BT2024]

If SpaceX launches a Starship in 2026 or 2028 for an uncrewed or crewed Mars landing, seems like a great opportunity to send ridealong technology to collect the samples and return them to Earth.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

My understanding of the problem is that it would take something like the mass of a StarShip payload landing on the Mars surface to provide for both a rover to collect the samples and a launch-to-Mars-orbit craft with enough fuel.

But, then there is still the return to Earth part of the journey to get the samples from Mars orbit to Earth reentry. I'm not sure if one StarShip could provide both.

The major holdup seems to be that NASA has been trying to figure out how to do it with very much smaller spacecraft, due to budget concerns.

The early SpaceX missions to Mars have an entirely different focus, and don't have the available payload mass for sample return ride-alongs, so those NASA missions would probably be paid for as whole once-and-done StarShip missions. Still not likely to fit NASA's budget. SpaceX earliest StarShip launches to Mars are apparently expected to be one-way, probably filled with robots and habitat manufacturing equipment for them to assemble and operate on Mars without humans present.

 

[ChrisA]

If SpaceX launches a Starship in 2026 or 2028 for an uncrewed or crewed Mars landing, seems like a great opportunity to send ridealong technology to collect the samples and return them to Earth.

Yes. Starship just might have enough capability to take an actual payload to Mars. It would be harder to land with the added weight and then you need the added weight and complexity of a door and a crane or elevator. All this adds engineering hours, testing hours and cost and or course "mass".

But let's say they did this. It would still cost "many billions" because transportation to Mars has not in the past ben the major cost of a mission to mars. I think the current rover mission cost about $4B but the launch cost was about $250M. So getting to Mars was only 1/16th of the total cost.

So what is inside the ridealong payload (aside from the door and crane needed to extract it?). It would need to be a mobile rover, have some self driving ability and a reliable robot arm for fetching the samples and then,... A large rocket is needed to fly the samples to orbit. But then what? It needs to transfer those samples to an Earth return vehicle

This is the problem with Starship. It only addresses the lowest cost part of the mission. The payloads typically cost 10X the launch cost so even if you make launching to Mars free you only get a 10% reduction in mission cost.

The mobile robot with the arm and the ascent rocket and the obitor that waits above Mars together cost MUCH more than Starship.

 

[ChrisA]

My understanding of the problem is that it would take something like the mass of a StarShip payload landing on the Mars surface to provide for both a rover to collect the samples and a launch-to-Mars orbit craft with enough fuel.

But, then there is still the return to Earth part of the journey to get the samples from Mars orbit to Earth reentry. I'm not sure if one StarShip could provide both.

The major holdup seems to be that NASA has been trying to figure out how to do it with very much smaller spacecraft, due to budget concerns.

The early SpaceX missions to Mars have an entirely different focus, and don't have the available payload mass for sample return ride-alongs, so those NASA missions would probably be paid for as whole once-and-done StarShip missions. Still not likely to fit NASA's budget. SpaceX earliest StarShip launches to Mars are apparently expected to be one-way, probably filled with robots and habitat manufacturing equipment for them to assemble and operate on Mars without humans present.

Can a 2026 version of Starship land with any payload mass, or would the ship have to be empty? If we wait some years we will have a more capable Starship with three more engines and larger fuel tanks. Then there is the problem that a rover and ascent vehicle would not be ready so soon.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

I think NASA was getting out to 2040 for the return mission, without any StarShip involvement, anyway.

We have been terrible at predicting technological advancement rates in the past, so what StarShip is capable of doing at various points in the future isn't really a good planning basis. (Think about the technologies that the movies "2001" and "2010" showed, compared to where we really are in 2025, not to mention Musk's proclivity for making unrealistic schedule statements.)

When we say "StarShip" these days, we tend to think of the current upper stage of the SpaceX megarocket. But, there is really no reason that other upper stages could not be developed for various tasks. I expect that the SuperHeavy first stage would be able to put a Mars lander with a return stage on the Martian surface, if someone wants to pay to do that. That is an entirely different proposition from having a single StarShip of current design fly the same mission. The use of multi-staging is actually the "proven" technology for such missions to the Moon, including the Apollo and Chinese missions with returns.

 

[skynr13]

My understanding of the problem is that it would take something like the mass of a StarShip payload landing on the Mars surface to provide for both a rover to collect the samples and a launch-to-Mars-orbit craft with enough fuel.

But, then there is still the return to Earth part of the journey to get the samples from Mars orbit to Earth reentry. I'm not sure if one StarShip could provide both.

The major holdup seems to be that NASA has been trying to figure out how to do it with very much smaller spacecraft, due to budget concerns.

The early SpaceX missions to Mars have an entirely different focus, and don't have the available payload mass for sample return ride-alongs, so those NASA missions would probably be paid for as whole once-and-done StarShip missions. Still not likely to fit NASA's budget. SpaceX earliest StarShip launches to Mars are apparently expected to be one-way, probably filled with robots and habitat manufacturing equipment for them to assemble and operate on Mars without humans present.

The ESA is responsible for returning the samples and have their craft ready to do that once they are supplied to orbit.