POLL: The Moon or Mars, Where to Go First?

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Moon or Mars - Where Should Humans Go First?

  • Moon First! It's 3 days away and a lunar base will be a great stepping stone to Mars.

    Votes: 58 63.0%
  • Mars Direct! The moon is dead. Mars might be alive. Get some biologists there asap so they can poke

    Votes: 14 15.2%
  • Go for both! With all the money governments spend on other things, a couple hundred billion to suppo

    Votes: 20 21.7%

  • Total voters
    92
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O

Omegamoon

Guest
To the moon Alice :D
it's a whole lot closer and there's lot's of technology that needs to be fine tuned b4 you take off on a long distance road trip :ugeek:
 
N

nimbus

Guest
Alright, I thought you meant from the POV of someone already on Mars, needing water. There's plenty of it. Otherwise, no argument from me. Kaukler of U of Alabama says you can just microwave regolith to -50C and hold a cold plate over it to catch the water and then just scrape it off. And we'll soon find out more with LCROSS.

The 30 years thing - http://www.sens.org/index.php?pagename= ... _timeframe
 
L

luchs

Guest
At first, I actually want to choose both, but to realize that Moon's surface are not quite like a shape of planet, I'd prefer we go direct onto Mars. Because as far as we can research on this, we won't get more difficulty to discover other planet, because of the Space engine itself will develope faster rather than we get step by step try on moon first :roll:
 
D

davoyager

Guest
I actually think we should seriously consider suborbital floating stations above the atmosphere of Venus. We would use robots to mine and explore the surface while gathering the energy and water we need from the sun and the rarefied upper atmosphere. Does anybody know how high above the surface we have to be to be in clear air and what kind of gravity we would have at that altitude? I know there is water in the upper atmosphere above the acid layer.
Like the plants of our world we should grow towards the sun. That's where the energy is. We will find minerals on Venus the likes of which we have never imagined. That may be where we find the materials we will use to go to the stars.
 
M

mithridates

Guest
davoyager":2z32eef7 said:
I actually think we should seriously consider suborbital floating stations above the atmosphere of Venus. We would use robots to mine and explore the surface while gathering the energy and water we need from the sun and the rarefied upper atmosphere. Does anybody know how high above the surface we have to be to be in clear air and what kind of gravity we would have at that altitude? I know there is water in the upper atmosphere above the acid layer.
Like the plants of our world we should grow towards the sun. That's where the energy is. We will find minerals on Venus the likes of which we have never imagined. That may be where we find the materials we will use to go to the stars.

You'd want to be around 50-60 km above the surface. The gravity there would be the same since the aerostat wouldn't be orbiting the planet but rather just floating above it. I'm pretty sure there's still sulphuric acid at that altitude but equipment can be protected against corrosion - so says Geoffrey A. Landis, anyway.
 
D

davoyager

Guest
Venus is an earth sized, several billion year old oven with geological, tectonic and atmospheric chemical activity we are only guessing at. What we do know is that it is an active world churning with forces that forge minerals we have never seen on a vast scale. We must go to our sister planet to find the secrets she holds.
 
T

triathlonJOE

Guest
Considering we went to the moon in '69 (a long long time ago) I wonder about the validity of the arguement that says the public will be more likely to support going there over and above a trip to Mars because "Joe public" will simply say "didn't we already do that"? Personally I think it will take a Chinese or Indian manned mission to the moon to get the Mars project into high gear. What those agencies lack in technology they make up for in determination so the technology will come in a decade or less.
 
C

CuriousEnough

Guest
Financial problems could halt progress.. Oh dear.. Cut our Nose despite...
Shouldn't this ring a bell at commercial space agencies. Let them do it in cooperation with the governments of the civilized world and private funding. Maybe even a mandatory 1 US$ donation by every World Citizen per month...

Citizens should by now start to realize that a small donation leads to big savings (health, Re-Programming the Human Body, Clean Planet, Alternative Energy, Space Travel w/ new discoveries...)

As for my choice, we should do both - since we might discover -x- on the moon, which could possibly stall exploration for another 40 years until we somehow discover -y- on Mars, urging us to go there immediately (oh we lost another 40 years). Once space bases are permanently manned on both planets - exploration beyond should be the next step. I would for sure like to see someone planting a flag inside that mysterious hexagon on Saturn before I turn 50...
 
D

dd75

Guest
"by Lancelot_64
I would say space superiority is vital to each country's security and personally I believe upcoming challengers such as China and a few (scary) others already know this... All it takes is a rogue to drag a rock to earth and let it go... Will we be able to stop him? Monitor him? If it the impactor occurs naturally are we ready to mitigate the risk? With this train of thought, as space access becomes commonplace the risk of attacks becomes a very real threat.. In my eyes the threat is now Armageddon and not simply bus bombings.. To be able to control these aspects we will need to be as comfortable in space as we are protecting our countries on terra firma today.. None of us are there yet we don’t have the hardware or the expertise.. (at least this is not public knowledge)"

You need to get off the adrenaline pump. Do you know how much energy is required to accomplish what you have outlined? Space belongs to everyone not just Americans, so is the internet and this forum. Don't think non-americans are not tuning in to your imperialistic thoughts on this site.

"Long term future - It would be shame if America's future inhabitants lost its stake or right to new assets or territories... interpret that statement as you see fit. I do remember in the not so distant past a country placing a flag under the north pole to lay claim... Radical thoughts? Who knows, but I can tell you for certain you and I do not know this answer.. "He who hesitates loses" – and the stakes are huge."

This doesn't belong in the space age or the future but in your imperialistic past.
 
R

RandyL

Guest
I think that Mars should be our primary focus - and not just a one time exporatory voyage - but with the full intention of creating a permanent colony on Mars. We have already been to the moon and while I'm not saying that we shouldn't ever go back, Mars makes more sense from a long term focus - existing technology would allow us to nominally terraform Mars to allow vegetation to grow on the surface of the planet within 100 years (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/paper1.htm) with the eventual terraforming of Mars to allow humans to walk without suits. In addition, there is abundent water and other minerals that can be found and used to support a human colony. With its reduced gravity as compared to Earth, Mars would be an ideal stepping stone for exploration of the outer solar system as well as the asteroid belt. While I understand that creating a Lunar colony would be safer because of the closeness, exploration always has and always will require some risks - did the European countries wait until they could ensure that all colonists be assured safety when the migrated to the new world? We have sent numerous spacecraft to Mars so we know we can get there safely, the only question is, do we have the will.
 
T

truthseeker67

Guest
It is IMPERATIVE that we get back to the moon....NOW!!!

this just might be the craziest thing you've ever laid your eyes on!!!! could it really be possible there is an actual ALIEN SPACESHIP artifact (or a secret one of ours???) that crash landed on the moon so many eons ago???

why is the "establishement press" ignoring this story??? thank the light for the internet and true freedome of information!!!

read these sites as soon as possible and let me know your thoughts. i've already downloaded the "raw images" from the site that hosts them for NASA and this anomaly is DEFINITELY REAL and NOT A TRICK OF LIGHT AND SHADOW!!!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/luna/ ... The%20Moon

http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMAR ... ledge.html

THERE IS REALLY SOMETHING ON THE FAR SIDE THAT "THEY" HAVE COVERED UP FOR DECADES!!! IT'S NO WONDER THE ALIENS COMMUNICATED TO US TO LEAVE THE MOON AND WHY WE HAVEN'T RETURNED.

this could be one of the biggest stories EVER!!!!
 
N

nimbus

Guest
Or maybe it crashed into the back of your head. Since you don't have eyes there, how do you EVER know for sure???????
 
M

MeteorWayne

Guest
truthseeker67":2m2jeuag said:
It is IMPERATIVE that we get back to the moon....NOW!!!

this just might be the craziest thing you've ever laid your eyes on!!!! could it really be possible there is an actual ALIEN SPACESHIP artifact (or a secret one of ours???) that crash landed on the moon so many eons ago???

why is the "establishement press" ignoring this story??? thank the light for the internet and true freedome of information!!!

read these sites as soon as possible and let me know your thoughts. i've already downloaded the "raw images" from the site that hosts them for NASA and this anomaly is DEFINITELY REAL and NOT A TRICK OF LIGHT AND SHADOW!!!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/luna/ ... The%20Moon

http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMAR ... ledge.html

THERE IS REALLY SOMETHING ON THE FAR SIDE THAT "THEY" HAVE COVERED UP FOR DECADES!!! IT'S NO WONDER THE ALIENS COMMUNICATED TO US TO LEAVE THE MOON AND WHY WE HAVEN'T RETURNED.

this could be one of the biggest stories EVER!!!!


OK GREAT. YOU ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP WITHOUT ANY REAL SCIENCE. THANX FOR POSTING!!!!!!!!!
 
L

Lancelot_64

Guest
dd75":tropyqy7 said:
You need to get off the adrenaline pump. Do you know how much energy is required to accomplish what you have outlined? Space belongs to everyone not just Americans, so is the internet and this forum. Don't think non-americans are not tuning in to your imperialistic thoughts on this site.

This doesn't belong in the space age or the future but in your imperialistic past.

DD75 -
Firstly, you have a right to your opinion..
IF you read closely I said EACH country should strive to excel in space; common sense. No matter how you interpret my comment(s) I believe in equality and have 100's of friends from all around the world via the internet.. Competition is healthy.. Space Exploration does not belong to everyone, it belongs to those who have the initiative and means to make it so.. If that would be through global partnerships then all the better, again common sense.

Second - Energy?
1.) Are you talking about fuel? Fuel is not a problem DD75, that problem has been solved long ago. Nasa and other experts have already stated that fuel will need to be ferried via transports to strategic locations enabling this trip.. It is not so much a matter of getting the energy as it is the DESIRE and Capital to make it so - Just (very simple) facts I am sorry..

2.) Or are you speaking of human effort (energy)? Hardware has to be designed scalable/modular. Majority of all equipment designed for the moon return should also meet Mars requirements. (except fuel capacity of course). The Moon missions are to test Mars equipment and living remotely in space. Nothing should require major re-engineering or we have botched the concept of the moon Testbed. This would mean that most of the additional MARS effort would be invested in building module extentions and or planning the trip.. The concept is simple and efficient, as it should be. If there was along transition from Moon missions to Mars, I would be looking for modern thinking administrators.

Now to answer your Troll comment - Yes, I am American and wont sit on my flag to satisfy you.. Nor would I expect anyone else to sit on theirs. I am in support of ALL countries who use logic to create mature decisions. If you think space is a platonic place where we will all sit and have a tea while feeling that warm fuzzy feeling well... you may need a dose of reality, what age are you in? It will be no different in space than here on earth - so dont presume to know.

Finally, "This doesn't belong in the space age or the future but in your imperialistic past." Correction DD75 - It's Capitalist, Democratic and what is your authority? I seriously doubt you alone knows what belongs in the future. As a friend with a common interest I hope you allow people to express themselves freely - to be restrictive is cough* "Imperialist". (trolling and or grandstanding)

I would love to know your thoughts on the Actual Thread Subject.
 
Q

QuikSanz

Guest
Every country knows the moon is a great place for a base, even China is gearing up for this. We better get some good places mapped out quick because in another 50 years countries will be scrambling to get a spot. No only a base but some kind of mining may happen and in the future this may a good place to recycle old satellites and maybe even grab a small asteroid or comet for dissecting and recycling, Imagine more water.

Chris
 
P

ppatton

Guest
Going back to the moon may be a necessary first step towards Mars. To reduce costs, the US should abandon George Bush's go it alone mentality and seek greater international cooperation in the moon/Mars effort. A good start might be inviting the Chinese to join the International Space Station project.
 
M

MarkoPo

Guest
I take gentle issue with ZenGalacticore. Let's go to Phobos first and dock with the moonlet with hardly any delta-v. We can start fuel processing labs, and burrow into Phobos to prepare for mor missions to come, as well as establish stations to report on Martian weather. Let's committ to long term supply of food and fuel for both the Martian system, the asteroid belt and Luna!
 
S

SpaceForAReason

Guest
To the disappointment of most of us space buffs, REALITY BITES!

The reality is that we are nowhere near being able to terraform Mars. There will not be any space elevators in the next 50 years. Governments largely dominate the business of travelling to space. We need movement now, not later.

The large grandiose steps we would all like to take are likely not going to happen in our lifetime and are certainly not affordable.

With that in mind, we should put our best money, effort, and time toward growing, developing, and accelerating the things we can truly affect in the next 15 years.

We are talking BABY STEPS. When we fought for Pork Chop Hill it was one step at a time. When pioneers went West, it was one step at a time. When we went to the moon it was because we began one step at a time in the 1940s. One measurable, attainable gain at a time.

The soldiers on Pork Chop Hill may have dreamed of a new weapon that would end the confict quickly, but the reality was they had to take that hill with what they had. The pioneers going west probably wished for a high-speed train out West, but, alas, they had to use wagons and they went anyway. Going to the moon started with our first tests of the V-2 rocket and culminated nearly 30 years later with landing on the moon.

We need to focus on what is immediately attainable that can foster and grow the future. Mars is great. I would certainly love to go there. Will that happen anytime soon? Likely not. Even NASAs plans to go there on schedule are in doubt.

Let's first build a serious space port in orbit (not just a McDonalds Playground: sorry ISS) where we can build vessels truly worthy of the exploration we expect and quit throwing tin cans at the stars. Let's build a Long Duration Space Facility in our own back yard: The Moon. We can reduce the effects of bone loss there and stay for much longer and do more to prepare there. We need to build in-situ resource exploitation and industry IN SPACE before going farther.

Fabricating vessels on Earth is 1960's thinking. Gather, fabricate, and explore from space. We need to quit thinking that we have to launch everything we need from the bottom of a very deep gravity well. Before we can go to Mars we have to be self suficient FROM SPACE and not from Earth. The West was not built using trees, rocks and dirt from New York. When the pioneers wanted shelter, they looked around and gathered the materials from the land they were in.

We can build better sheilded, more robust, and more redundant systems FROM SPACE, IN SPACE, and faster. Mining and fabricating on the moon, assembly of multiple vehicles IN SPACE. Then perform launch, support, and rescue operations FROM SPACE. Time between launches needs to be measured in hours and days not months and years. This is the only way to accomplish that. Require less from Earth.

Bottom line: Establish a firm grip on the edge of space and don't let go. Think, Crawl, Stand, Walk, Run, Fly!
 
Q

QuikSanz

Guest
SpaceForAReason":28d30on7 said:
Bottom line: Establish a firm grip on the edge of space and don't let go. Think, Crawl, Stand, Walk, Run, Fly!

Exactly the direction I would go. :D To go to Mars without an off planet base would be folly. :roll:

Chris
 
F

far

Guest
The solution is nuclear propulsion. Place a spacecraft carrier in high orbit that has spacecraft with nuclear propulsion (similar to the concept of using nuclear submarines). You could take astronauts on a 90 day trip to Mars, and less than a day to the Moon.

Send multiple spacecraft with nuclear propulsion ahead to the Moon and Mars with materials for prefab human habitats that the astronauts can build on their arrival. Some of these habitats could automatically construct themselves to prepare instant temporary shelter for astronauts as they build more sophisticated habitats.

Mining systems using nano-bots could be sent ahead to excavate huge subterranean caverns for construction of underground habitats, thereby using planetary rock to create underground cities and tunnels. Technology could extract H2O within these underground habitats to generate oxygen, water and fuel.
 
B

Booban

Guest
SpaceForAReason":di1w9f2w said:
To the disappointment of most of us space buffs, REALITY BITES!

...
We can build better sheilded, more robust, and more redundant systems FROM SPACE, IN SPACE, and faster. Mining and fabricating on the moon, assembly of multiple vehicles IN SPACE. Then perform launch, support, and rescue operations FROM SPACE. Time between launches needs to be measured in hours and days not months and years. This is the only way to accomplish that. Require less from Earth.

Bottom line: Establish a firm grip on the edge of space and don't let go. Think, Crawl, Stand, Walk, Run, Fly!

First you say reality bites and then come up with this 'realistic' idea? Com'on now. Building space ships in space is more far fetch than a space elevator. All the workers, machinery, the nuts and bolts, built in zero G. All that infrastructure in space means that we are already in Star Trek land.
 
B

Booban

Guest
ppatton":wnfmo84d said:
Going back to the moon may be a necessary first step towards Mars. To reduce costs, the US should abandon George Bush's go it alone mentality and seek greater international cooperation in the moon/Mars effort. A good start might be inviting the Chinese to join the International Space Station project.

Except it will not reduce costs by much since all other nations invest relatively little in their space programs. The US will pay more than the fair share to maintain leadership yet will have to share all the knowledge gained equally. And the chinese will just steal any knowledge not given.
 
S

Spaceguy77

Guest
I think the biggest problem we are facing in this age is the vast waste of resources. We used to finance the space program with whatever means necessary to get where we want. It seems that when we were in a race to get to space first or to get to the moon there was no limit to the money the government would put into the space program. Now we are not in any race and it isn't on the front page news so it doesn't seem as important. We need to get to the moon and establish a launch platform to mars. Unfortunately NASA has been hindered by all the money being used overseas in ventures that don't benefit as much as space colonization. They will need an extra 3 billion per year to get to the moon by 2020. Sorry for the lecture.......We should go to the Moon, Build a Base and Move on to Mars. :ugeek:
 
S

SpaceForAReason

Guest
Booban":6gluw9l0 said:
First you say reality bites and then come up with this 'realistic' idea? Com'on now. Building space ships in space is more far fetch than a space elevator. All the workers, machinery, the nuts and bolts, built in zero G. All that infrastructure in space means that we are already in Star Trek land.

That is exactly my point. Even with accelerated development these kinds of systems are very far away.

If we go to the Moon or Mars in the near term, it will be little better than the first time we went to the moon. When the tin can hits dirt, we cheer, we pack up, we go home. There will be no intent to stay or do anything more meaningful that a bit of test-tube science and pray that everyone comes back alive.

For anything more significant we must be patient and build infrastructure.
 
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