Preliminary Black Hole FAQ

heyscottie · Jul 20, 2004

The book is "Black Holes and Timewarps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy" by Kip Thorne. I, too, highly recommend it. The majority of it serves to give the reader a decent grasp on General Relativity, and the concept of black holes. Towards the end, Thorne raises wild possibilites about time travel, wormholes, and the construction and usage of such. This portion he readily admits in the text to be fanciful at best, but the speculation is fun.

qzzq · Jul 20, 2004

Here's another: Black holes are often described as disks, but gravity collapses in all directions, therefore, why is it a disk? Because of its spin? Or is the event horizon spherical? Is the accretional disk responsible for that disk idea? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> *** </div>

Saiph · Jul 20, 2004

that title is a biit different than I remember. Which could be my memory, or perhaps a different edition. I do know the title I gave is actually to a "Nova" series book, not Kip Thorne's work, though they have similar content and titles. BH's aren't described as disks, but oblates, just like planets and stars. This is indeed because of their rotation, and does refer to the shape of the Event horizon. The rotation basically means the point of no return is further from the center near the equator, than at the poles for various reasons (Mostly GR stuff I don't grasp well). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jschaef5 · Jul 20, 2004

is it possible that black holes become odd shaped? If they are rotating around a galaxy on a somewhat planar path then wouldn't it get very very lopsided as it picks up more and more junk from space. Isn't there a way we could messure and somewhat map out the gravity field from a blackhole by looking at the stars behind them? Or do we not have good enough technology to do this yet? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nikshliker · Jul 20, 2004

how is it that spinning changes the shape of the event horizon. what is the current theory of gravity? i wanna know what gravity is exactly and why it can become so powerful yet also be so weak. y is it that we can find no other relation between strength of gravity and mass? is that the only factor? (that we know of?) ::what makes objects of mass attract eachother?!?!?!?!::

jjkeighe · Jul 21, 2004

just a couple of random questions... stuff I have read or thought of somewhere along the ways. if we were able to PROJECT a BH in front of a space ship contained via magnetic fields and use the acceleration towards the BH to move the ship would we then have a way of travelling faster than light? (constantly accelerating yet no more mass required to enter the system) remember its being projected infront of the ship and contained. another thought is if a black hole could be harnassed for energy the creation of a perfect sphere would be required to encompass that BH correct? and from there how could we use the radiation or gravimetric distortions to generate electricity or some other viable energy source... on top of that could we live on the surface of that sphere by adding an atmosphere at a distance that we have between 0.8G and 2.0G? just random thoughts... If nothing is faster than light why is darkness there first? A seminar on Time Travel will be held two weeks ago.

alokmohan · Jul 21, 2004

O h such a simple account by a scientist.KIP is great.

Saiph · Jul 21, 2004

jsheaf, they'll be a bit wider in the middle than between the poles. But they won't get too distorted. They can only spin so fast (speed of light limit), nik: You've just asked questions I, and the science committee, basically don't have a good answer to. We don't know why gravity is the way it is. We know what it does, and how it acts. But not what it is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 21, 2004

we could, if we didn't have to speed up the BH too. As we get going faster, we've got to move the BH, or we fall into it (I'd call that a bad idea). And since we can't get the BH up to speeds greater than C, we can't either. We'd need to make a ring, if not a sphere, that circles the "equator" of the BH. The best way to extract energy is if the BH is charged and spinning. Then it has an electric and/or magnetic field. As the BH rotates, the field rotates, sweeping around the ring, generating an electric current in the ring via induction. It's just like a Dynamo, where you spin a magnet in a coil of wire. It would have to be perfectly placed and undisturbed in order to stay put, without help. It's an a dynamic equilibrium. Like balancing a pencil on it's tip. You do anything, and it all goes to pot. Now, stuff will likely be falling into the BH (another problem we've got to deal with, as it'll hit the ring...and hard). If we capture it, we can use some of the electricity generated to power Ion Propulsion engines to accelerate and fire the material as needed, to maintain position. As long as stuff falls in, we're safe. Except from the stuff falling in.... Good thoughts, nice ideas and one's I've had too! Especially the BH propulsion one, though I use it with artificial gravity technology's in Sci fi. I always dislike that technology, since it can easily be abused (unless it's absurdly expensive or big), and the authors don't ever do anythng with it. btw, nice signature. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jjkeighe · Jul 21, 2004

in terms of artificial gravity it technically would not be artificial other than the fact that we would have generated that BH. if you accelerate at a constant 9.81 then you could have the ship floors on the opposite side of the BH. then turn around halfway through the trip with little to no weightlessness and then accelerate in the other direction giving us a constant feeling of gravity. (would mention more but off to work.) The goal of all Humans should be to stand on the surface of one world and look up in wonder towards the next.

jjkeighe · Jul 21, 2004

new and interesting information at http://www.space.com/news/hawking_dublin_040721.html "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." — Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

nikshliker · Jul 22, 2004

if you accelerate at a constant 9.81 then you could have the ship floors on the opposite side of the BH. then turn around halfway through the trip with little to no weightlessness and then accelerate in the other direction giving us a constant feeling of gravity I am having trouble understanding what you r trying to say. It may be that you were rushed and had to use only a few words to explain something very complicated or i am just ignorant (very likely that latter cause) <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

alokmohan · Jul 22, 2004

Can we go toa wormhole or white hole?

Saiph · Jul 22, 2004

no, they are, currently, only theoretical. Also, wormholes are "unstable" if anything tries to go through, they shrink, a lot, and in all realistic cases (i.e. you don't start with one the size of a planet) they close before the object can go anywhere (thus leaving it where it started). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jjkeighe · Jul 22, 2004

After a body falling into a rotating black hole is torn apart and reduced to elementary particles by tidal effects, it may be possible for those particles to miss the singularity, travel through a small hole or tunnel in spacetime (called a wormhole) to another universe or another part (or time) of our own universe. A thin tube of space-time connecting distant regions of the universe. Wormholes might also link to parallel or baby universes and could provide the possibility of time travel. A space-time anomaly, or "portal," through which the fearless spacefarer may travel to distant sectors of the galaxy. Hole made by a burrowing worm. (In space that must be one amazing worm...) The rest of this is just a brain fart. If we (humans) were to put forth our intellectual ability we would be colonizing the stars within the next 50 years if we could determine how to create a wormhole. Also known as Jump Technology creating a wormhole could be as simple as creating a gravimetric distortion in a single point and direct it towards a distant point. Strength could dictate the length of the wormhole. With the most likely length being limited to less than 13LY. With the problem of supposedly being shrunk at the event horizon of the wormhole, a sufficient velocity would allow this terminus to remain open while the object is transferred through. Anything is possible for us as long as we all put our energy towards it and stop the stupid international bickering that occurs. We should become less self destructive and think of where we are supposed to be and heading. Not just in our lives but where we should all be heading. The stars are our homes yet we have no drive to reach them??? Lost my train of thought... Like I said this is a brainfart. It's a good thing the guy in charge of naming galaxies was into chocolate bars and not Chinese food. Otherwise, the Milky Way might have been named Moo Goo Gui Pan, and who wants to have to learn abo

nikshliker · Jul 22, 2004

from hawkings new ideas of BH deterioration is it still true that we can have theoretical white holes?

Saiph · Jul 22, 2004

probably. Hawking's work has nothing to do with the underlying solutions to general relativity equations (concerning warped space-time) that are BH's and WH's. His work has to do with interactions between quantum mechanics (his forte) and these objects. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

nikshliker · Jul 23, 2004

I have read about size distortions when traveling at near the speed of light. Would it be possible that if we were able to maintain such an extrenuous speed we could theoretically pass through the worm hole even though it shrinks very small very fast? -------------------- if at the event horizon light cannot escape the gravity's pull then wouldnt it just be common sense to think that something even closer to the mass in the middle of a BH would be traveling faster than the speed of light? ------------------------- I once thought that the pull of a BH would tear you apart. Your feet would be closer and therefore would be pulled with more force than your head and you would jus tear apart......but, could you distort enough due to your speeds falling in to avoid these effects?

Saiph · Jul 23, 2004

good questions. 1) I don't think the trick works on wormholes, that's the impression I get from my reading. 2) Not necessarily. Earths gravity pulls at 9.8 m/s, but does that mean you are going that fast every time you fall? It's escape velocity is 11 km/s. Does that mean you fall that fast? Also, the rules of relativity prevent that, even inside a BH. 3) good question...perhaps. I actually think you can, since the gravity source will "see" you as really really thing, the differential will be minor. That's a good, and tough question. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

nikshliker · Jul 23, 2004

could you explain in detail why large bodies of mass rotate? Or to spare your fingers just send me a link to where it is explained.

Saiph · Jul 23, 2004

well, large objects form by catching and keeping smaller bodies. Now, as these smaller bodies are falling in, how often do you think they're going to hit dead center? Answer: Rarely, very, very rarely. They will hit off center. And if there is a little bit of rotation to the entire cloud of nebulae that formed the star and solar system, they'll hit more on one side than the other (cause they all tend to move in the same direction). And that slowly accrues to a nice spin (just as if you shoot jet of water onto one side of a ball). In more technical, and brief, terms, its due to the "conservation of angular momentum" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

nikshliker · Jul 23, 2004

I suppose the spin of the entering body of mass would also affect it then too, right? anyone know of any forums on the entire physics field rather than than just astrophysics, as is the case with this forum?

Saiph · Jul 23, 2004

sorry qazws, missed it. Umm....I'm afraid that if you take that route, you're results are meaningless. It's sorta like: Hey, how fast can you run the mile on this track? and then, instead of running around the track, 4 times or so, as the general rules of the race goes, you just cut accross. If you throw out the rules, and say, "there are none" then you make anything possible. BH's could be powered by leprechauns, or mad squirrels. No, I have never heard of Nirvana theory. Nikshliker: Yes, the spin of the entering body is also transmitted to the newer, bigger body as well. I don't know of any physics forums, though they are out there. They tend to be a bit less "public" than this one. Things like yahoo groups and such. Feel free to post any physics questions and discussion you have though, since I'm hard pressed to find any physics that isn't related to astronomy <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 23, 2004

the only reason that physics breaks down and can't deal with the singularity is because our current setup is incomplete. If we have a complete picture, the "singularity issue" will be resolved, and we'll know whats going on. If it's "nothign with no rules" you'd have to explain how you transition between no rules what so ever and having rules. But that would require a description, with rules, to describe that. The "nothing" explaination smacks of an intellecutal cop out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Jul 24, 2004

that's still an intellectual cop out. At least at this stage. Because quantum mechanics, the realm in which this singularity falls (that of the very small) can't handle that yet. QM can't handle gravity at this point, despite it being a factor. Until we prove QM can (or can't) handle gravity, we better not throw our hands up and say "there are no rules!" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Preliminary Black Hole FAQ

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