Project Orion: NASA's Next Spaceship Takes Shape

kane007 · Sep 27, 2006

<img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> SPACE.com 2006/09/27 The pieces are coming together for NASA’s next spaceship Orion as space agency engineers begin working with lead contractor Lockheed Martin to shape the vehicle’s cockpit. “We’re bringing the design teams together and looking at the features of this so that we can adjust and have one integrated concept,” NASA’s Orion project manager Caris ‘Skip’ Hatfield told SPACE.com this month, adding that astronauts are key in the design process. “We don’t want to deliver them a cockpit and have them hate it.” The Orion cockpit is just one of many features under review by NASA and Lockheed engineers as the agency discusses the requirements necessary for the capsule-based spacecraft, which is expected to begin manned flights to the International Space Station (ISS) in 2014 and return astronauts to the Moon by no later than 2020. Engineers are using a Lockheed Orion mock-up, along with a NASA-built counterpart at the agency’s Johnson Space Center, to set out a definitive design for the post-shuttle era spacecraft. The contractor then opened a mock-up of the spacecraft to reporters at its Houston-based Exploration Development Laboratory this month. “This is a long way from ready-to-cut metal,” NASA astronaut Lee Morin, who is helping to develop the avionics and crew systems for Orion vehicles, said in an interview. “But it’s a very important step in that direction.” NASA tapped Lockheed to build the solar-powered Orion vehicle on Aug. 31. The spacecraft is designed to succeed NASA’s three space shuttles – Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavour – which are set to be retired by September 2010. Old look, new systems While the Orion vehicles owes much of its capsule look to NASA’s Apollo vehicles, which carried astronauts to the Moon and Skylab space

kane007 · Sep 27, 2006

This NASA mockup should give everyone an idea (feel) of the scale of Orion's habitable space. A direct link if your impatiant for the image to clear.

gunsandrockets · Sep 27, 2006

Thanx for the update! One item that jumps up to attention from the information table is the GLOW of the CM which is one metric tonne less than the original specifications for the 5.5m diameter version of the CM. Every little bit helps.

gunsandrockets · Sep 27, 2006

Look at the size of that sucker. I count 10 people visible standing around the circumference! I still think NASA made a mistake specifying that the CM be as large as 5m in diameter. For the job the CM is supposed to do that makes it much more massive than neccessary. That scale of size might be okay for a purely LEO spacecraft (though with the drawback of needing it's own brand-new super-sized launch-vehicle the Ares I), but for deep-space missions that extra mass is an anchor weighing down everything that might be accomplished. Compare for example the old BAE study for a multi-role capsule for LEO missions. The MRC had a base diameter of 4m and a mass of less than 6 tonnes. Even so it was designed with the capability of carrying a crew of 4 plus a small amount of cargo. For ISS lifeboat purposes two extra seats could be substituted for the cargo. The MRC was intended to be launched by an Ariane IV rocket for ESA access to the ISS plus manned and unmanned autonomous missions in LEO.

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

It seems to me that NASA wanted a roomy craft since we are loosing the Shuttle and it has room. Volume does not necessarily equate to mass. 6 peeps to LEO, 4 peeps to the moon, 4 peeps to Mars? 4 peeps in that space for months to Mars. Think about that for a sec. Seems not so big when you get cooped up in it for months. Also they still have to put a toilet in it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

docm · Sep 28, 2006

IMO for anything further than the moon a hab will in the mix, complete with toilet <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Orion will just be the Earth re-entry module/lifeboat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

gunsandrockets · Sep 28, 2006

"...Volume does not necessarily equate to mass..." Actually it does. The reduction of the capsule from 5.5m diameter to 5m diameter is directly responsible for the mass going from 9.5 tonnes down to 8.5 tonnes. "...6 peeps to LEO, 4 peeps to the moon, 4 peeps to Mars? 4 peeps in that space for months to Mars. Think about that for a sec. Seems not so big when you get cooped up in it for months..." You misunderstand the fundamental purpose and use of the capsule. It's primary job is as a means of exiting the Earth's atmosphere during launch and reentering the atmosphere during return to Earth. The capsule isn't designed for long duration occupation whether the destination is the ISS, the Moon or Mars. Excess capsule mass directly subtracts from the usefull mission payload mass to destinations such as the Moon or Mars. Mission mass such as habitation modules, surface landers, consumable supplies, radiation shielding etc. Then there is the multiplier negative effect of extra propellant needed to move around that extra capsule mass.

lampblack · Sep 28, 2006

Wouldn't the pottie be installed in the service module? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

mattblack · Sep 28, 2006

4.5 meters diameter might have been enough to have 4 crew abreast, or in a line as it were; just like Apollo was for only 3. But at 4.5 meters, 6 people would have been a hell of a squeeze. With 6, the per-person cubic volume would be just a tad less than Apollo was for 3: Apollo: 70 cubic-ft per person (3 crew) Orion: 60 cubic-ft per person (6 crew) 90 cubic-ft per person (4 crew). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

docm · Sep 28, 2006

Two rows, much smaller seats (web + steel frame/retractable) and no thousand switch control panels; all LCD & digital w/keyboards, which will open up all kinds of space vs. Apollo. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

gunsandrockets · Sep 28, 2006

"...at 4.5 meters [diameter CEV capsule], 6 people would have been a hell of a squeeze." Well I disagree. BAE seemed to think they could fit 6 people in a 4m diameter capsule as I already pointed out. 4.5m is more than big enough for a capsule the primary function of which is 4 man lunar missions. ISS missions are only going to be 3 men (as per ESAS). The supposed 6 man CEV requirement is for Mars missions, but Mars is so far out in the future no one including NASA has any real idea how the Mars mission would be done or what size crew is best. Capsule roominess depends on what you want the capsule to do. If the capsule is only a launch and recovery system as it should be, then it's okay if the space is cramped. The Soyuz reentry capsule fits 3 people into a living space of only 4 cubic meters. If you want your capsule to function as some kind of space winnebago then it needs to be roomier. The original Apollo 3.9m diameter capsule was designed for use on the lunar surface since when it was first designed there was no separate lunar lander. As such the Apollo capsule had to have galley and toilet functions plus enough room so the crew could stand up inside the capsule and put on or take off the lunar EVA suits. So the three man Apollo capsule had 6.6 cubic meters of living space.

mattblack · Sep 28, 2006

Have you ever sat in an Apollo CSM? I have (in a replica 'boilerplate') and brother, it was cramped! And it would be so even with the center couch stowed and a smaller control panel. Anyone who has flown in a Soyuz will tell you that the Ascent/Descent module is ridiculously cramped. And, anyone approaching 6 feet in height cannot fly on it. 4.5 meters for the Orion would be the practical minimum and 5 meters the practical maximum. For what its worth; I thought from the start that the 5.5 meter design was a bit ridiculous, truly a 'winnebago'. Anyway, this is all a bit academic -- the size IS to be 5 meters. Let's get on with it... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

>You misunderstand the fundamental purpose and use of the capsule. It's primary job is as a means of exiting the Earth's atmosphere during launch and reentering the atmosphere during return to Earth. The capsule isn't designed for long duration occupation whether the destination is the ISS, the Moon or Mars.< Are you sure about this? What is the plan to go to Mars with it then? It is defenitely going to the Moon and that alone is minimum of 6 days with 4 people. I beg the differ. It is a camper as well as a van....ITS AN RV!!! LOL. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

Ok, where did you read that? I know the Russians with the Europeans want to do something like that in going to the moon with a bigger Soyuz capsule and a Columbus style hab module attached to it. But I have never read where NASA will have a hab module in going to Mars. But it doesn't for the moon, we pretty much know that. It does make sense for having a hab module in going to Mars and maybe even a small lab to pass the time while on the way to Mars and back. If there is no toilet in Orion, will astornauts use baggies? I asked this before and I think Shuttleguy said they were putting a potty in the capsule. Don't forget that the capsule will probably used for avionics and nav systems for all trips, including Mars. Not just a lifeboat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

subzero788 · Sep 28, 2006

"ISS missions are only going to be 3 men (as per ESAS)." I'm not sure about this, the article said it was 6 crew for ISS missions: "Two launch arrangements – a six-seater for ISS-bound flights and four-person array for lunar missions – are on the drawing board..." Project Orion: NASA's Next Spaceship Takes Shape

subzero788 · Sep 28, 2006

"Are you sure about this? What is the plan to go to Mars with it then? It is defenitely going to the Moon and that alone is minimum of 6 days with 4 people. I beg the differ. It is a camper as well as a van....ITS AN RV!!! LOL." You are forgetting that the LSAM will be docked to the CEV for the trip to the moon, which should provide substantial extra living space. AFAIK there has been no specific details on the volume of the LSAM so far but I would expect it to be fairly large considering it has to support the 4 crew on the moon for at least a week.

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

>If you want your capsule to function as some kind of space winnebago then it needs to be roomier. The original Apollo 3.9m diameter capsule was designed for use on the lunar surface since when it was first designed there was no separate lunar lander. As such the Apollo capsule had to have galley and toilet functions plus enough room so the crew could stand up inside the capsule and put on or take off the lunar EVA suits. So the three man Apollo capsule had 6.6 cubic meters of living space.< I don't think so. The when the capsule design started they already knew that they needed a LM. This was pretty much from the begining. Of course your going to complain because the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous did not take hold until a study by a guy found its way on the head honcho's desk of the program. And after reading and considering they realized that one ship to go from earth to moon and back takes up a lot of fuel where they could just have a small light weight craft land on the moon and use less fuel thus saving weight and money. So the Apollo capsule was never designed to land on the moon, Hotshot! *Oh my, I'm thinking like Dr. Kelso in Scrubs.* <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

>Have you ever sat in an Apollo CSM? I have (in a replica 'boilerplate') and brother, it was cramped! And it would be so even with the center couch stowed and a smaller control panel. Anyone who has flown in a Soyuz will tell you that the Ascent/Descent module is ridiculously cramped. And, anyone approaching 6 feet in height cannot fly on it. 4.5 meters for the Orion would be the practical minimum and 5 meters the practical maximum. For what its worth; I thought from the start that the 5.5 meter design was a bit ridiculous, truly a 'winnebago'. < Well, Mattblack, he probalby thinks astonauts were 3' midgets. Or traveling as dehydrated crew members..just add water. LOL. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

>You are forgetting that the LSAM will be docked to the CEV for the trip to the moon, which should provide substantial extra living space. AFAIK there has been no specific details on the volume of the LSAM so far but I would expect it to be fairly large considering it has to support the 4 crew on the moon for at least a week.< *** />>>NEWS FLASH<<<*** Not on the way back! No really, that only account for 3 days maybe 4 days on the way to the moon. While on the moon the kids will play outside and I don't think they really care where their going to hunker down in. They would probably be willing to use a pup tent. But then they have to go back to Earth. Goiong from the great lunar outdoors to this tin can in orbit is not very appealing, I don't care how big or small it is. I know the feeling, not that I have gone to the moon but was aircrew with the Air Force in a what I like to call a "tin can" and that baby was way bigger than any capsule in space...It was a Boeing 707 and after an 8 hour mission in it you ready to get out of it. After a 10 hour mish your eye started to twitch and after a 12 hour mish the stench of the toilet in the back was constatnly in your nose. Any way when we landed at a temporary duty sight enjoying sunbathing by a pool, then the next day had to go back in the "tin can" and fly back home it was not an appealing thought by no stretch of the imagination. So I say give those modern day Astonauts/Scientists (no more test pilots) some room. They have to put up with one another in a small space for long time...Yes I said small. I don't think you live in a 5m dome in space do you? So I wouldn't judge that the space is too big. Plus they are going to load it up with cabinets for storage and seats and areonautics and...space suits....and most importantly toilet paper. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

subzero788 · Sep 28, 2006

Good point, but consider the Apollo astronauts--they had far less room both ways and they managed well enough. Astronauts are not tourists, they are professionals who undergo years of training for their missions. If they can't handle being stuck in a reasonably confined space for a few days then they are probably in the wrong job <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />

holmec · Sep 28, 2006

>Good point, but consider the Apollo astronauts--they had far less room both ways and they managed well enough. Astronauts are not tourists, they are professionals who undergo years of training for their missions. If they can't handle being stuck in a reasonably confined space for a few days then they are probably in the wrong job< But there is a difference between the Apollo astonauts and the current astronauts. We want to send scientists up there. They seem to require a little more room than test pilots. And don't talk to me about proffesional actors. You need a whole planet for them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

gunsandrockets · Sep 28, 2006

"I don't think so. The when the capsule design started they already knew that they needed a LM." Good grief. Have you read the interview of Max Faget who designed the Apollo capsule? I have. Maybe you should too. You are wrong. The Apollo capsule and Service Module were designed for landing on the moon. The Service Module was sized to function as the ascent stage to take the capsule direct from the lunar surface back to Earth without using any rendezvous with any other craft. Fortunately for NASA, the existing design of the CSM fit nicely into the revised plan for using Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. The design of the CSM came first, LOR came afterwords.

gunsandrockets · Sep 28, 2006

"I'm not sure about this, the article said it was 6 crew for ISS missions:" True. But until I see more than a one sentence line in a single article I'm going to assume the ESAS plan of the block I CEV for ISS missions is still going to seat three people.

gunsandrockets · Sep 28, 2006

"No really, that only account for 3 days maybe 4 days on the way to the moon...So I say give those modern day Astonauts/Scientists (no more test pilots) some room." Actually of a typical 2 week long lunar mission (3 days outbound, 1 week on the moon, 3 days inbound) the lunar crew will stay in the Orion capsule by itself for only 3 days. The rest of the time the crew will either stay in the LSAM by itself or have access to the LSAM. For lunar missions the LSAM is the dog and the capsule is the tail. The primary vehicle is the LSAM and every kilogram of excess mass added to the capsule subtracts from the mission mass that goes to the lunar surface.

geminivi · Sep 28, 2006

Perhaps Nasa is acting like a car buyer. I've noticed that sometimes the tiniest woman is driving a huge SUV. Does she need all that space or whould a VW Bug do just as well? NASA is in a position of choosing, given its booster options, so why not go bigger? I also would observe that Nasa might be stuck with the CEV for a few decades, its easier to be bigger now than after 10 years of flights.

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