Sailing downwind faster than the wind

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theridane

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There seems to be a movement of sorts that claims to have constructed a vehicle that sails directly downwind, faster than wind, using only the power of the wind (at the same time).

It looks like a chop-shopped shopping cart with a phony fan/propeller/windmill contraption and a belt that transfers the torque from it down to the wheels.

Now, of course, anyone with even a marginal understanding of reference frames will have their crackpot alarm going off like on a free energy convention, but still: what do you guys think? :)

(move to The Unexplained if necessary)
 
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unclefred

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theridane":1tm9esck said:
There seems to be a movement of sorts that claims to have constructed a vehicle that sails directly downwind, faster than wind, using only the power of the wind (at the same time).

It looks like a chop-shopped shopping cart with a phony fan/propeller/windmill contraption and a belt that transfers the torque from it down to the wheels.

Now, of course, anyone with even a marginal understanding of reference frames will have their crackpot alarm going off like on a free energy convention, but still: what do you guys think? :)

(move to The Unexplained if necessary)

If the vehicle is standing still and the wind is blowing from the back, then the propeller will rotate. This can be turned into a power to turn the wheels. As the vehicle gains speed, the effective velocity of the wind across the vehicle will be reduced. If the speed increased to the same speed of the wind (I am not saying it can do that, but just assume it does) then there will be no air movement across the vehicle. When the speed matches the wind, the vehicle will be moving right along with the air mass and the propeller will feel zero force and will stop moving. If it somehow moves faster than the wind, then air will be moving backwards across the vehicle. The air has to move backwards because that is the very definition of moving faster than the wind. If the air is moving backwards, then the propeller must move backwards (unless it changes pitch). I saw nothing in the video showing the propeller slowing to zero and then changing pitch or changing direction, thus can only assume it never went faster than the wind. I suspect a video fake.
 
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Shpaget

Guest
If you pause the video at the beginning, just as he gives a push, you can see that the propeller rotates in a way that produces thrust in a normal way, pushing the vehicle forward.
My guess is that it is motorized.

Wind powered machines can't go faster than the wind downwind since the wind would change the relative direction and be counter productive.
 
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eyytee

Guest
theridane":2tztnkfx said:
Now, of course, anyone with even a marginal understanding of reference frames will have their crackpot alarm going off like on a free energy convention, but still: what do you guys think? :)
I think it can work.

unclefred":2tztnkfx said:
I suspect a video fake.
Could be, but there is no real need to cheat. Here are much better and more conclusive videos:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SYvg40NHtc[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDzWh9J1dk4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5VlX-xEk00[/youtube]

More info on that project:
http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/

Shpaget":2tztnkfx said:
Wind powered machines can't go faster than the wind downwind
Not true.

theridane":2tztnkfx said:
(move to The Unexplained if necessary)
Before this happens, here some explanations:

General introduction:
http://dwfttw.blogspot.com/

Analysis by Mark Drela from MIT:
- Forces
- Power
Drela":2tztnkfx said:
This confirms that the DDWFTTW condition V/W > 1 is achievable with a wheeled vehicle without too much difficulty.

Animations:

The cart takes energy from the relative motion of air & ground, reducing their velocity difference. It basically leverages one against the other:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bxXRQtcMY[/youtube]

It is symmetrical to going directly upwind, with a turbine cart or a turbine boat:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za_rPKSwiyc[/youtube]

In less abstract terms it is a "space saving" method of tacking downwind with a VMG greater than windspeed. This is how sail vehicles do it:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_OKNr120t4[/youtube]

In the case of the propeller cart the propeller blades are tacking on a helical path. Just like the sail they are mechanically constrained to move indirectly downwind, even if the vehicle itself moves directly downwind:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPFzHoubQzg[/youtube]

Another nice analogy:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-trDF8Yldc[/youtube]

I hope that helps.
 
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centsworth_II

Guest
The vehicle in the opening post may be real or not. But this record breaking wind-powered racer which goes "up to six times the speed of the wind" is for real:

"His craft borrows technology from Formula One racing cars and has more in common with an airplane than a sailing ship. While conventional land yachts have a flexible sail, this vehicle has a rigid vertical wing, which generates thrust in the same way as a conventional aircraft wing produces lift. Combined with its streamlined shape, this allows the craft to travel at up to six times the speed of the wind."

And, yes, he did it!

Here's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRFRQXPtXTs
 
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eyytee

Guest
centsworth_II":1fmrp7nq said:
The vehicle in the opening post may be real or not. But this record breaking wind-powered racer which goes "up to six times the speed of the wind" is for real:

Yes but the Greenbird, cannot go DIRECTLY downwind faster than the wind (DDWFTTW). The propeller vehicle in the videos I posted can do this. It already achieved close to 3x windspeed in winds of 15mph, and could go higher with the aerodynamic changes they made: http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/

The Greenbird set a record of 126mph in wind of 30-40mph. A more robust & optimized propeller vehicle operating in this conditions could break that record.
 
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origin

Guest
The problem with this particular vehicle is that the propeller turns when the following wind is faster than the vehicle. If there is no relative wind then the propeller will not rotate. If the vehicle is faster than the wind then the propeller will try to spin in the opposite direction - it will be a drag on the vehicle.

A properly positioned sail on a vehicle will beat the propellered contraption every time.
 
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eyytee

Guest
origin":23wjp0bs said:
The problem with this particular vehicle is that the propeller turns when the following wind is faster than the vehicle. If there is no relative wind then the propeller will not rotate.
Wrong. You confuse the propeller with a turbine(windmill). The propeller turns because it is driven by the wheels

origin":23wjp0bs said:
If the vehicle is faster than the wind then the propeller will try to spin in the opposite direction - it will be a drag on the vehicle.
Do you see that happening in the videos I posted in post #4?

origin":23wjp0bs said:
A properly positioned sail on a vehicle will beat the propellered contraption every time.
Not directly downwind.
 
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origin

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eyytee":2ohuqxqy said:
origin":2ohuqxqy said:
The problem with this particular vehicle is that the propeller turns when the following wind is faster than the vehicle. If there is no relative wind then the propeller will not rotate.
Wrong. You confuse the propeller with a turbine(windmill). The propeller turns because it is driven by the wheels

How so? The contraption must begin moving forward some how. If the wind is pushing the propeller it will move in one rotation (say clockwise) for the propeller to propel the contraption forward it must rotate in the opposite direction (counter clockwise). I never saw the propeller stop and change directions.
 
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eyytee

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origin":kujfzqwa said:
eyytee":kujfzqwa said:
origin":kujfzqwa said:
The problem with this particular vehicle is that the propeller turns when the following wind is faster than the vehicle. If there is no relative wind then the propeller will not rotate.
Wrong. You confuse the propeller with a turbine(windmill). The propeller turns because it is driven by the wheels
How so? The contraption must begin moving forward some how.
Initially the wind pushes it form behind. Bluff body drag force makes it start rolling.

origin":kujfzqwa said:
I never saw the propeller stop and change directions.
Exactly my point: The rotor always works as a propeller (never as a turbine). Except at the very start, where it is just a bluff body. Watch the "second run" video, and pay attention how the blades are pitched, and how they rotate.
 
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ThinAirDesigns

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origin":s73cdr7t said:
I never saw the propeller stop and change directions.

The propeller never changes rotational direction because the wheels never change rotational direction -- the prop is hard geared to the wheels.

Initially it is just the bluff body drag of the wind over the chassis that starts moving the vehicle slowly. Gradually as the prop is spun up it begins to unstall and just like the sail on a boat start to generate thrust.

JB
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
Folks who are familiar with the physics of sailing acknowledge that it's possible to steady state sail a traditional sailing rig at a fixed angle to the wind where the downwind VMG (velocity made good) of the craft is greater than 1x windspeed (even 2x, 3x ...). Those who do not agree with this should review the land yacht data collected by NALSA (nalsa.org) on the topic (or just read about the latest America's Cup boats).

For those who agree with the above, I present the following thought experiment related to the DDWFTTW propeller driven vehicle that has also been discussed here. The following is presented in the hope of removing some of the related misconceptions and furthering the discussion.

First, a couple of design basics related to the DDW propeller driven vehicle (DDWPDV). The spinning airfoils are not acting as turbine blades. The blades do not drive the wheels. The spinning airfoils are acting as propeller blades and are *driven by the wheels". The force on the wheels is a braking force and the gearing between the wheel axle and the prop axle transfers this braking force to the spinning blades.

Second, since the topic of this thread is "Sailing downwind faster than the wind", some dismiss the DDWPDV saying that it's not "sailing". The truth is, the airfoils on the DDWPDV are acting in the *exact* manner as the airfoil of a traditional sailing rig with its parent on a 'faster than the wind' downwind reach. Both airfoils are carving helical paths through the air -- the traditional rig is merely carving a helical path of MUCH greater diameter (the diameter of the earth) than those on the DDWPDV.

I will support this above assertion with the following thought experiment: (As with all thought experiments, there are some simplifications.)

Imagine for a moment a world that rather than being shaped as a sphere is shaped as a cylinder. The cylinder 'world' is laying on it's side in our view and we are standing at the south "end" of the world on top of the cylinder. The entire surface of this world consists of one enormous uninterrupted dry lake bed with one wind blowing from the south to the north.

Let's send a land-yacht on a 45 degree reach running to the NW. Without making a single gybe, this craft will 'corkscrew' it's way around the world as many times as needed to reach the far end of the cylinder. We know that if we release a neutral bouyancy floating balloon into the wind at the same time as the land-yacht, by the time the land-yacht has made one circumnavigation of the cylinder world and reappears to us on top it will be significantly farther downwind and 'downcylinder' than the balloon. This of course is just a simple matter of the craft having a downwind VMG greater than 1.0 wind speed .

Now, imagine that when the initial craft we sent on it's 45 degree path is halfway around the world (and now on the 'bottom' of the cylinder), we set another identical craft off on an identical 45 degree downwind reaching path. We start this craft off at the same 'longitude' as our craft already in motion. What we now have are two land-yachts on opposite sides of the world, going the exact same speed and carving the same helical path -- all the while remaining exactly opposite of each other on the cylinder. Every rotation they make they cross the DDW path of the drifting balloon and each rotation they get farther and farther ahead of it.

Imagine now in this thought experiment that we begin to shrink our cylinder world a bit at a time. We have not changed the speed of the wind nor the speed of the land-yachts. As this 'world' shrinks, all that changes is the diameter of the helical path shrinks and the number of revolutions that the yacht makes in any given period of time increases. Keep shrinking this imaginary world until the wheels of the land-yachts are on such a small cylinder that they are essentially touching each other as they spin dizzyingly around and around -- their sails protruding in opposite directions.

If you are with me so far, you'll see that our two land-yachts are still achieving a downwind VMG of greater than 1.0 -- every time they rotate they increase their advantage over the floating balloon. Also, those sails spinning in a perfect circle are sure looking familiar (propeller anyone?)

Going a step further in this 'morphing' process, let's replace the chassis of both land-yachts with something more simple without making any changes to the spinning sails. We know that both the sails and the chassis are carving a 45 degree helical path so let's dump the frames and wheels of the land-yachts and replace both of those with a single, oversized threaded rod. This rod is equipped with grooves that match the sails 45 degree path and is aligned with the wind, taking the place of the 'pole' of our cylindrical earth. Let's spin on a matching oversized nut and drop the masts into holes in that nut. Now, without ever interrupting the spinning sails nor their downwind VMG >1.0 paths we have created the simplest DDWFTTW vehicle of all -- two spinning airfoils on a nut traversing a threaded rod. At the center of these rotating airfoils, we now have a nut that is going DDW and continuing to press it's advantage over the balloon with every rotation.

(Before taking the last step to our vehicle, it's interesting to note that the sole purpose of the keel mechanism on a traditional sailing rig is to force the airfoil to take an advantageous path through the air. In the case of a 45 degree reach, it's purpose is to ensure that for every foot that the airfoil moves downwind, it also moves one foot to the right (or left). It's this forced diagonal path through the air that creates the apparent wind needed to generate thrust. Of course the purpose of the non-articulated skates of an ice-boat, the wheels on a land-yacht and the threaded rod and nut in our above example serve the same purpose as the keel of the sailboat -- forcing the airfoil to maintain it's path diagonal to the wind.)

Last step: Once we reach the point that we have a pair of spinning airfoils happily pushing the nut DDWFTTW down a threaded rod, we need someway to translate this into a vehicle that can traverse any dry lake bed DDW. Realizing that to do this we only must find a way to force our airfoils to continue on their 45 degree helical path -- a path from which they have yet strayed, we arrange gearing between the wheel axle and the prop axle to ensure that for every foot the wheels roll across the dry lake bed DDW, the airfoil is forced through the air one foot to the side just as before -- and there you have it, DDWPDV -- a DDWFTTW vehicle.

As you can see, through this entire process the wind never changed directions, the angle of the apparent wind to the airfoils never changed, the speed of the airfoils through the air never changed, the downwind VMG of the airfoils never changed, the lift and drag vectors of any given airfoil section never changed -- in short, other than a slow change in the diameter of the helical path of the airfoil, all remained the same from "sail" to "prop".

Turns out that the airfoils of a traditional sailing rig on a faster than the wind reach and those of the DDWPDV are acting in the same manner -- one can *call* it sailing or not, but it's a distinction without out a difference from an aerodynamic standpoint.

Here is the 'Cliff-Notes' version of the above: The airfoils of the propeller are one loooong and continuous downwind helical reach while the chassis travels DDW. Adjusting the gear ratio between the wheels and the prop is the equivalent of adjusting your ground track on the land-yacht (and thus altering your sails path through the air) and changing the pitch of the propeller is the equivalent of adjusting the angle of the sail on the land-yacht.

Hope this helps:
 
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origin

Guest
ThinAirDesigns":urrihfvo said:
origin":urrihfvo said:
I never saw the propeller stop and change directions.

The propeller never changes rotational direction because the wheels never change rotational direction -- the prop is hard geared to the wheels.

Initially it is just the bluff body drag of the wind over the chassis that starts moving the vehicle slowly. Gradually as the prop is spun up it begins to unstall and just like the sail on a boat start to generate thrust.

JB

The prop is hard geared to the wheels - really? Well then the contraption can certainly go faster than the wind for a short period of time - from the inertia of the spinning prop. The problem is the moment that the contraptions starts to go faster than the wind the air movement from the forward movement will act to slow the contraption by trying to force the prop to spin in the opposite direction, which will not only tend to slow the contraption down from wind resistence but will even transfer the breaking action to the wheels.

It certainly still seems that a properly position sail would beat this thing over any reasonable distance.
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
origin":1f0a2gtz said:
A properly positioned sail on a vehicle will beat the propellered contraption every time.

Basic physics limit a sail on a traditionally rigged sailing craft (no matter how 'properly positioned') to something less than windspeed when the craft is traveling *directly* downwind (DDW). The more efficient said craft is, the closer to windspeed it can get but without achieving 100% efficiency it can never achieve the speed of the wind (WS).

The fact that the rotating airfoil sail on the vehicle in the video is not constrained to take the same path through the wind as the chassis of the vehicle means that the chassis *can* exceed windspeed while traveling DDW.

If the two craft are constrained to a DDW path, the vehicle with the traditional sail will settle in below WS while the propeller driven vehicle has already been shown to be able to exceed WS by something in the 3x range -- thus it won't be much of a race.

JB
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
origin":2c68d64h said:
The prop is hard geared to the wheels - really?

Yes, with no variable ratio capabilities, just fixed gearing.

Well then the contraption can certainly go faster than the wind for a short period of time - from the inertia of the spinning prop.

Nope -- to use the inertia of the spinning propeller to increase the speed of the vehicle it would need to be equipped with a variable speed transmission. The vehicles you see in the video have a hard geared ratio between the prop and the wheels. You can't use inertia from the prop without slowing the prop and with fixed gearing this also slows the entire vehicle.

The problem is the moment that the contraptions starts to go faster than the wind the air movement from the forward movement will act to slow the contraption by trying to force the prop to spin in the opposite direction, which will not only tend to slow the contraption down from wind resistence but will even transfer the breaking action to the wheels.

This is the part of the explanation you keep missing (and it's KEY) -- the wheels *always* drive the prop. The force at the wheels is *always* a braking force, both below and above windspeed.

At no time is the wind allowed to turn the blades directly (as you're imagining), the blades are always forced by the gearing to act as propeller blades rather than turbine blades.

It certainly still seems that a properly position sail would beat this thing over any reasonable distance.

I can certainly seem that way intuitively, and yet the math, vectors and most importantly the physical evidence shows this vehicle beating the 'properly positioned sail' by margins of 4-5x. It's a great physics brainteaser.

JB
 
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origin

Guest
At no time is the wind allowed to turn the blades directly (as you're imagining), the blades are always forced by the gearing to act as propeller blades rather than turbine blades.

So what is making the contraption move to supply the power to turn the propeller?
 
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ThinAirDesigns

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origin":1qkie9f2 said:
At no time is the wind allowed to turn the blades directly (as you're imagining), the blades are always forced by the gearing to act as propeller blades rather than turbine blades.

So what is making the contraption move to supply the power to turn the propeller?

The same thing that makes a high performance sailboat or land-yacht move when it is on a broad reach with a downwind VMG greater than the speed of the wind -- thrust caused by the apparent wind over the airfoil running at an angle to the wind.

The sail on the above said craft doesn't turn a shaft and drive a wheel -- it merely creates lift and in concert with the keel pulls the boat in the desired direction. Same thing with this vehicle - the spinning airfoils create lift which pull the entire vehicle forward via the prop shaft thrust bearing. As the vehicle is pulled forward, the gearing between the wheel and the spinning airfoils take the same kinematic place of the sailboats keel -- ensuring that for every foot the airfoils moves downwind, it also moves a foot to the side (creating the same 45degree reach of the sailboat sail).

There's a reason that modern top performance racing sailboats don't use spinnakers anymore when their course is downwind -- they can go downwind *much* faster than the wind by reaching (so a spinnaker would stream behind rather than in front). Once you realize that fast boats aren't propelled downwind by the drag of the wind hitting a sail anymore, but rather by a sail setting that actually *accelerates* the air relative to the sail and slows it relative to the water, this craft gets a lot easier to understand.

Here is a link where the the team of BMW Oracle (current America's Cup winner) talk about their ability to sail downwind with a downwind VMG (velocity made good) of twice the speed of the wind.

http://valenciasailing.blogspot.com/201 ... rence.html

JB
 
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Shpaget

Guest
That would mean that once the vehicle starts rolling you no longer need wind at all? :?

I won't rest until I try to build some kind of a model of this...

Shopping list:
a propeller
some balsa wood
couple of wheels
some bearings
an assortment of gears
an extremely fine tunable conveyor belt
a wind tunnel
a warehouse

I'll let you know of my results once I have my setup set up.

So, who's got a spare wind tunnel?
 
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eyytee

Guest
Shpaget":1q1j75ml said:
That would mean that once the vehicle starts rolling you no longer need wind at all? :?
No. Without the speed difference between air & ground the propeller cannot produce more thrust than the wheel drag needed to driver the propeller. The energy comes from reducing the true wind speed (air vs. ground). If that is zero, there is no energy to harvest.

Shpaget":1q1j75ml said:
I won't rest until I try to build some kind of a model of this...
See this instructions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ArigMKhi4
(there is also a parts list somewhere)

Shpaget":1q1j75ml said:
So, who's got a spare wind tunnel?
To simulate the cart at windspeeed you just need a treadmill in still air. To simualte speeds above windspeeed you can blow air with a fan from the front against the cart.
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
Shpaget":28za7j99 said:
That would mean that once the vehicle starts rolling you no longer need wind at all?

With no wind it will travel the same speed as the America's Cup winning BMW Oracle boat -- zero mph. It is only through slowing the air relative to the opposing surface that either craft can move.

I won't rest until I try to build some kind of a model of this...

That's excellent -- here are a few shots from others who have done it.

Username "Tobermoryphil" on TalkRational.org
attachment.php


A small group of high school kids that built on on the cheap and won their science fair.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmAa8WPfxtA[/youtube]

A guy who documents his project pretty well on his website:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S2HHwfcz9Y[/youtube]

One of the biggest critics of ddwfttw who built his own vehicle and had to slap his forehead when it worked.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfZt19F-OA4[/youtube]

And one made by Charles Platt of Make Magazine that failed miserably for a variety of reasons - the first being that the belt is twisted the wrong direction and the pop-sickle stick prop just isn't efficient enough.

4c6e33766a321c1d0c516b449ecd60075g.jpg


Have fun.

JB
 
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origin

Guest
ThinAirDesigns":3dtc2220 said:
origin":3dtc2220 said:
At no time is the wind allowed to turn the blades directly (as you're imagining), the blades are always forced by the gearing to act as propeller blades rather than turbine blades.

So what is making the contraption move to supply the power to turn the propeller?

The same thing that makes a high performance sailboat or land-yacht move when it is on a broad reach with a downwind VMG greater than the speed of the wind -- thrust caused by the apparent wind over the airfoil running at an angle to the wind.

JB


No it is not the same thing. You are saying the rotating wheels supply the power to turn the propeller. That takes energy. The energy initially is the momentum of the contraption. That will be transfered to the rotation of the propeller and the contraption will slow down. The wind will then try to reverse the direction of the propeller slowing it down more.
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
origin":ade50022 said:
The energy initially is the momentum of the contraption. That will be transfered to the rotation of the propeller and the contraption will slow down.
"

Would you mind please explaining to me how the "energy initially is the momentum of the contraption" when it can start *initially* from a dead standstill?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SYvg40NHtc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDzWh9J1dk4[/youtube]


Thanks

JB
 
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Mee_n_Mac

Guest
origin":k68hrtke said:
No it is not the same thing. You are saying the rotating wheels supply the power to turn the propeller. That takes energy. The energy initially is the momentum of the contraption. That will be transfered to the rotation of the propeller and the contraption will slow down. The wind will then try to reverse the direction of the propeller slowing it down more.

The links provided to the analyses are good. Basically if the force provided by the prop > that the retarding forces provided by the wheels + drag of the system then the vehicle must go forward, accelerating even. Like you I am still wondering where the energy comes from. The explanations given haven't "hit home" just yet so I'm "sleeping" on them for a few days until they do. In the meanwhile I'm back to looking at the forces involved and trying to understand how the wind plays into them. The drag on the body must be negligible and reduces to zero when traveling downwind @ windspeed. So pushstart the vehicle to this point (in your mind) and then release it. What happens then and what are the forces involved ? Why does this only work with some downwind and not zero (down)wind ?
 
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eyytee

Guest
Mee_n_Mac":1wv3b3d1 said:
Like you I am still wondering where the energy comes from.
...
Why does this only work with some downwind and not zero (down)wind ?
As already stated: The energy comes from reducing the true wind speed (air vs. ground). If that true wind speed is zero, there is no energy to harvest. Seen from the cart, the air must move backwards slower than the ground. So the cart can apply a higher force to the air, than it applies to the ground. It's like a gear box:
- lower force & higher speed on one side (ground),
- higher force & lower speed on the other (air).
 
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ThinAirDesigns

Guest
origin":2s9lsjmb said:
So what is making the contraption move to supply the power to turn the propeller?

ThinAirDesigns":2s9lsjmb said:
The same thing that makes a high performance sailboat or land-yacht move when it is on a broad reach with a downwind VMG greater than the speed of the wind -- thrust caused by the apparent wind over the airfoil running at an angle to the wind.

origin":2s9lsjmb said:
No it is not the same thing.

Since both craft move when the wind blows and both come to a stop when the wind stops I have a hard time believing that you and I can't agree they are both powered by the same wind.

You are saying the rotating wheels supply the power to turn the propeller.

Well, let's be careful when we use the term "supply the power" -- the power ultimately is supplied by the wind, but yes ... it is a braking force on the wheels that provides the kinematic restraint (turns the prop) to keep the spinning airfoil at its proper angle to the wind. This of course is no different than the keel of a sailboat which also produces a braking force and provides the same kinematic constraint for the sail angled to the wind.

That takes energy.

Absolutely correct - in both cases. It takes energy to over come the drag of the keel of the sailboat and energy to overcome the drag of the wheels on the cart.

The energy initially is the momentum of the contraption. That will be transfered to the rotation of the propeller and the contraption will slow down. The wind will then try to reverse the direction of the propeller slowing it down more.

I touched on this one in a earlier post and will wait for your response -- I still don't understand your "momentum" position as it flies in the face of the evidence of the steadily increasing speed of the vehicle from a standing start.

JB
 
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