Saturns Rings may be as Old as the Solar System.

MeteorWayne · Dec 13, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. -- New observations by NASA's Cassini spacecraft indicate the rings of Saturn, once thought to have formed during the age of the dinosaurs, instead may have been created roughly 4.5 billion years ago, when the solar system was still under construction. Larry Esposito, principal investigator for Cassini's Ultraviolet Imaging Spectrograph at the University of Colorado, Boulder, said data from NASA's Voyager spacecraft in the 1970s, and later from NASA's Hubble Space Telescope, led scientists to believe Saturn's rings were relatively youthful and likely created by a comet that shattered a large moon, perhaps 100 million years ago. But ring features seen by instruments on Cassini -- which arrived at Saturn in 2004 -- indicate the rings were not formed by a single cataclysmic event. The ages of the different rings appear to vary significantly, and the ring material is continually being recycled, Esposito said. Cassini Link (This ia also posted in Cassini thread, but I though it deserved a discussion of it's own here- MW) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 13, 2007

This permanent planetary "feature" seems to fit quite well with Kristian Birkeland's early experiments. Using current flow, he was able to create three very intriguing planetary and solar features. He was able to create rings around planets, Aurora, and "coronal loops" just by varying the current flow, and the charges of the terella. http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Texts:On_Possible_Electric_Phenomena_in_Solar_Systems_and_Nebulae <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 13, 2007

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=24267 There is evidently a "ring current" that is present and has been observed in these rings as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 13, 2007

Warning: The second link is to a quicktime movie that is several (about 4) megabytes in size: http://www.jhuapl.edu/newscenter/pressreleases/2007/071212_video1.asp http://www.jhuapl.edu/newscenter/pressreleases/2007/videos/071212SupplRingCurrent.mov I need a little help "interpreting" this movie MW. If I'm understanding this ring current image properly, the emission pattern seems to move in relationship to the planetary rotation process, and it does not seem to be directly related to the solar wind direction. Is that your interpretation as well? The variations in the overall signal strength (sometimes it's redder than other times) could be related to solar wind variations in some way, but the emission pattern itself almost looks to be induced by the planetary rotation process in same way. Is that a fair assessment from your perspective too, or am I missing something, or misinterpreting the image in some way? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 14, 2007

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c3.mpg I'm beginning to wonder if all planets don't have some sort of ring current process in play. The recent Lasco-C3 image you posted in another thread got me to thinking about this. Right now there are two planets coming into our field of view and both of them (in fact all planets observed in Lasco images) seem to have a equatorial "ring process" surrounding the planetary body. I've notice this effect before, but I've always assumed it was some type of image artifact, but now I'm not so sure. By the way, there seems to be a comet coming into the sun from about the 6 o'clock position in the current images. I never see any overbleed type of artifact in cometary materials, but I've always assumed that was related to the overall brightness of the object in question. After reading your article and that other article on ring current however, I'm now starting to think that perhaps all planet have the ring currents, but perhaps not every planet has source material, like the jets from a moon to "fill in" the rings? What do you think of that idea? (fixed some obvious spelling mistakes) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

CalliArcale · Dec 14, 2007

Um, actually that's unrelated to the original post. That wasn't talking about ring currents in Saturn's magnetosphere (which was announced at the same time as the announcement about the age of the rings, and also a press release about why Saturn's rotational rate has been so hard to pin down). It was talking about the ring system -- the physical rings made of chunks of ice and rock. The rings were widely believed to be anywhere from 3 million to 100 million years old. They're very brilliant, which implies that they are new. (Older material should be quite dusty and eroded.) But the new research reveals that their dynamic nature constantly resurfaces the ring particles. It's an amazingly complex and downright breathtaking structure, and not static at all. The rings may have been there since Saturn was formed, and they've found evidence of a wide range of ages in the actual ring particles. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 14, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />But the new research reveals that their dynamic nature constantly resurfaces the ring particles. It's an amazingly complex and downright breathtaking structure, and not static at all. The rings may have been there since Saturn was formed, and they've found evidence of a wide range of ages in the actual ring particles.<hr /></blockquote> I guess I was just musing over whether or not the ring currents that were recently observed around Saturn are somehow contributing to this dynamic process, and maybe the dynamic processes of jets observed on a Saturn satellite. From that image I cited, the ring currents do not seem to directly affected by the solar wind, but rather they seem to have follow some sort of planetary rotation process. MW's Lasco link from another thread got me to thinking about this earlier. Every planet entering the Lasco field of view does seem to have a "ring" process around it's equator. I've always assumed this planetary ring was an image artifact (I think someone told me that once) but now I'm not so sure. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 14, 2007

Don't get excited about the horizontal lines radiating from planets and bright stars. That is an image artifact. The planet approaching from left to right is Jupiter BTW. The artifact is produced by the excessive photons bleeding out along the horizontal axis of the CCD array. Nice pickup on the comet! I will investigate to find out which sun grazing comet group it belongs to. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

vogon13 · Dec 14, 2007

LOL ! How many times have we been thru this ?? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 14, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Don't get excited about the horizontal lines radiating from planets and bright stars. That is an image artifact. <hr /></blockquote> Well, that was my assumption as well until I saw the movie showing Saturn's ring currents, and then I took another look at the Lasco images you posted earlier. If you notice the horizontal rings around the planets in the Lasco images, they seem to 'pulse" from one side of the planet to another as though there is movement of something around the planet. A moon would obviously do that, but there is a definite movement in the rings, that resembles the ring current movements around Saturn. Pure coincidence? I'm not so sure now. This is all your fault by the way. You're the one that got me thinking about planetary ring currents and Lasco-C3 images this week. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 14, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Don't get excited about the horizontal lines radiating from planets and bright stars. That is an image artifact.<hr /></blockquote> Could you describe the process that creates this "artifact"? It seems to me that a ring current pulse would result in an image artifact. In other words there may be nothing solid at the brighter side of the planet, just more photon output from a planetary ring current in that particular location. We could be talking about the same thing for all I know. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 14, 2007

Michael, please give up on the idea of the LASCO images showing ring currents. Let me repeat. THESE ARE KNOWN ARTIFACTS CAUSED BY BRIGHT OBJECTS. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know there's an explanation somewhere on the SOHO pages. Since they reorganized the site, I can't find things as easily, but I will look later when I can get back on the computer. The SO and I are sharing today (she's on a vacation day, but of course has to work anyway) But seriously, stop wasting your time thinking that these images from 90 million miles away can show anything as bright as the artifacts. Note that they are perfectly horizontal....it's due to the layout of the CCD array. WayneMan <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 16, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Michael, please give up on the idea of the LASCO images showing ring currents.<hr /></blockquote> Try as I might, I can't get the idea out of my head now. It's a bit like telling someone, "Whatever you do, don't visualize a pink elephant. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Let me repeat. THESE ARE KNOWN ARTIFACTS CAUSED BY BRIGHT OBJECTS.<hr /></blockquote> Well, I know that you are correct that these rings are thought to be known artifacts. In fact, they might even be considered "artifacts' from my way of looking at things as well. I can't however stop noticing the fact that these ring movements around the planets have an observable timing associated with them that is not the same for both planets in the image. The timing differences are particularly noticeable with these two planets. I also note that many parts of the image are bright and these bright areas don't all seem to bleed directly left or directly right. I assume there are ways to create similar effects with light alone, but I'm not convinced this particular effects is due entirely to the brightness of the object, particularly when you note the differences in pulsation/rotation speeds of the rings. If these pulsations were all identical, I might be more inclined to believe it was an artifact of overbleeding on a pixel. Now I'm not so sure anymore. I need to figure out which planets I'm looking at and think about it for awhile. <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />I know there's an explanation somewhere on the SOHO pages. Since they reorganized the site, I can't find things as easily, but I will look later when I can get back on the computer.<hr /></blockquote> I'm quite certain that you're right about this point, I remember reading it myself at the SOHO site at one point. I accepted that stat <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

alokmohan · Dec 16, 2007

The rings are as old as solar system.Nice to learn qualitatively new thing.

MeteorWayne · Dec 16, 2007

I tried. I give up. The timing differences are caused by the vertical motion of the planet. The planets are many times brighter than the brightest star in the image which is why that effect occurs. If you wish to continue wasting your time on this fool's errand, knock yourself out. I thought you were smarter than that. Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 16, 2007

http://www.livescience.com/space/scienceastronomy/071212-saturn-halo.html FYI, I would say that this article on Livescience was the best presentation of the Saturn ring data that I've seen thus far. I can't help but believe that you are right about pixel bleeding MW, particularly in the first couple of pixels closest to the planet in Lasco-C2 images. I guess I'm just not so sure anymore that we can rule out ring currents as being part of the "cause" of this ring effect now that we know that there are noticeable ring currents around at least some planets in the system. I don't really think I can "push" a concept like this without doing a lot more research on the CCD camera, the equipment, and the Lasco-C3 processing techniques and such. It's just an idea that popped into my head because of the recent discovery of the ring currents around Saturn, and the other conversations that have been going on recently that were related to Lasco images. I do think that you're right about bleeding playing a role here, I'm just not as convinced as you are that the *whole* ring is due to bleeding. As I mentioned, the primary problem I have with that idea is the fact that the rings around different planets seem to "pulse" at a speed that relates to the rotation speed of the planet rather than the rings all pulsing at the same speed. If the rings were all pulsing at exactly the same speed, and I'd never heard of Saturn ring currents, I'd definitely be inclined to agree with you that they were CCD artifacts. In fact, up until this last week, that's exactly what I thought. Now I'm just not as sure, particularly since the ring currents seem to ebb and flow with the planetary rotation process and the rings seem to follow a similar pattern. The only way I can even think to begin "testing" that idea is to figure out the planetary rotat <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 16, 2007

My point is that the pulsing you see is 100% n artifact of the overloading of the CCD pixels by photons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 16, 2007

So why isn't the pulse rate in the rings the same on both planets? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

michaelmozina · Dec 16, 2007

How do we come up with a "test" to determine if it's pixel bleeding or ring current pulsation related to planetary spin rates? The key "prediction" of a ring current pulse would be that the pulse was directly (not indirectly) related to the spin rate of the planet. For instance, this rotation rate of the planet prediction could be used to distinguish a rotational ring pulse from the reflections of light from an orbiting moon, provided that the moon did not rotate at the same rate as the planet. Could we use this same key "prediction" to somehow distinguish between pixel bleeding and ring current pulsation rates? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

MeteorWayne · Dec 16, 2007

Because they are moving on different paths. Niether is moving perfectly parallel compared to the array x axis. Jupiter's "vertical" path appears to be faster than that of Mercury this week. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

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