Scrubbing a launch because of NO lightning

[rogers_buck]

What if you constructed a mega capacitor in an old salt dome? Several thousand cubic feet filled with aluminum electrodes to store energy. Pick a salt dome in a heavy lightning strike aread, and use towed copper wire rockets to direct discharges to your mega cap electrodes. Given that each strike constitutes several hundred kiloamperes of high voltage current, that's a lot of energy.<br /><br />The general idea may be sound, but there are a lot of practical considerations that might make such a scheme difficult or even impossible. To supply the grid. But of course, we are only interested in space applications anyway...<br /><br /><br />If several strikes could be saved up the on-demand artificial creation of a plasma sprite to the high upper atmosphere might be achieved by a short circuit, courtesy of a thin fiber conductor. Dangled from a baloon or towed by a rocket, this conductor would start the discharge and soon be engulfed by a thick plasma. An electromagnetic propulsor on the payload would thrust against the plasma tube with a force far greater than gravity or chemical reactions. A plasma stream would be more robust a track for a magnetic field than one made of metal in terms of charge density.<br /><br />

 

[jimglenn]

You are trying to make a rail gun in the sky powered by a lightning strike. Even if you could attract a strike, it is over in a fraction of a second. Then your attempted "launch" will go dead. Continous power is needed. Sending laser beam power to a vehicle might work, microwaves have run small planes with rectennas, rectifier and antenna combined. <br /><br />Saving lightning bolts is very hard. Voltages that high, currents too, take giant conductors. The rise time is too fast, the biggest surge clamps have a small inductance in series to slow it down, so that other devices can engage it. Supercaps are generally low voltage, I have some 2.5V, 1F ones. Even if you manage to charge them, it will leak away with time. Have to use it within hours.<br /><br />You would be better off inducing a bolt to hit a metal target and heat it. Take the energy in calories. Then make steam or something. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vogon13]

As I recall, Felix the Cat would save lightning bolts in the freezer.<br /><br /><br />Moving right along, perhaps a semi-useful laser device could be pumped with a lightning bolt.<br /><br />Not sure what applications might exist for such a device, but maybe some would be interesting . . . .<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

Sure its over in a second. But that's where the worlds largest cap comes in. Store up multiple strikes and then short the cape out to the ionosphere to create a plasma beanstock to climb. Even after the reverse strike, the plasma would only slowly dissipate in the air. Those ions are rocket fuel!<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

Felix had some excellent ideas.<br />

 

[yevaud]

I loved the Magic Bag with all of that space in it. Useful, that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

The Warner Brothers, and their sister Dot also had such a bag. I belive Wacko carried it most of the time. Maybe he got it from Felix? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[nexium]

I'm not aware of a propulsor for climbing ion columns, but common salt = sodium chloride does not make good electrolytic capacitors. 1000 matched capacitors in series reduces the capacity by 1000 times and can tolerate a maximum of 450,000 volts. Small matching errors put 500 volts on some of the capacitors causing some of them to short, arc and/or explode. Oil filled capacitors have been built to higher voltage and may be a better choice, even though they have less watt hours per cubic meter. Some will stay charged for weeks.<br />Perhaps deep cycle batteries in series are a better choice. They are less expensive at about 1 kilowatt hour per 1/2 cubic foot. When new, they can tolerate at least 10,000 amps charging (or discharging) current for 1/10 second.<br />Most lightening strikes reverse polarity in a few milliseconds, so you will also need a many moderately expensive diodes or other rectifiers for any lightening storage method. Neil

 

[rogers_buck]

Salt dome is just a metaphore for a big cavernous space filled with metal plates. A giga farad capacitor. In reality, it might be something far more compact perhaps using aerogels.<br /><br />Capacitors store electric charge. From that electric charge can be extracted energy. Were space cowboys here, so we only care about launching things into orbit. So the question is what would a tremendous store of electric charge be capable of doing to launch a payload into orbit.<br /><br />I like the simplistic idea of lightning. We know it works because people die from its strikes practically every day. A lot is known about lightning and its trip through the atmosphere to its unfortunate recipient on the ground.<br /><br />Our salt dome, we have stipulated, can hold N lightning strikes. The basic idea is to create a short circuit between our mega cap and the upper atmosphere so that an artificial lightning bolt traverses a guide filament. The guide filament is also a metaphor. There might be a kick ass laser that creates an ionized path skyward for the lightning to follow - this isn't really key to the problem.<br /><br />The problem is EXTREMELY high level and can be summed up within the constraints I have defined as follows:<br /><br />If you had this huge electron store, and if you could channel it in a contained conduit, coult you use it as a rail launcher?<br /><br />Note that there are no specific constraints as to payload mass, terminal velocity, altitude, electron resevoire size, etc.. These are all parameters that should drop out of this basic question.<br /><br />For example, we know the total energy impulse of a typical rocket first stage. We know that impulse takes a certain mass to a certain altitude and a certain velocity. We can pick one and then simply look at the order of magnitude required for the energy for my fantasy scheme here to work.<br /><br />Next we would have to do some research to find out about the stability of plasmas in the atmosphere while charge

 

[scottb50]

Beep-Beep! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

No man, your on the wrong channel. This is Felix's gig.<br />