SOHO images, CME's and "new types" of solar eruptions.

[michaelmozina]

<p><font face="arial"><p>http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080910-eta-carinae.html</p><p><strong><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The new picture</strong></p> <p>The debris in the Homunculus Nebula, from the 1843 event, is moving away from the central star (and a companion star discovered in 2005) at about 1.5 million mph (650 kps).</DIV></p>http://soho.esac.esa.int/bestofsoho/Movies/10th/multisun_sm.mpg</font></p><p>This recent article got me to thinking about CME's and the effect they have in terms of blowing out material into interplanetary space.&nbsp; It seems to me that the relatively slow speed of the debris movement could be explained in terms of CME events rather than some new type of stellar explosion.&nbsp; During active phases, our own sun seems to be fully capable of flinging huge amount of material outward during a CME event. &nbsp;&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080910-eta-carinae.htmlhttp://soho.esac.esa.int/bestofsoho/Movies/10th/multisun_sm.mpgThis recent article got me to thinking about CME's and the effect they have in terms of blowing out material into interplanetary space.&nbsp; It seems to me that the relatively slow speed of the debris movement could be explained in terms of CME events rather than some new type of stellar explosion.&nbsp; During active phases, our own sun seems to be fully capable of flinging huge amount of material outward during a CME event. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>I don't think it is fair to compare the two by simply 'scaling up'.&nbsp; They are two completely different stars in different stages of their life cycles.&nbsp; I find it highly unlikely that similar mechanisms are at work here.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't think it is fair to compare the two by simply 'scaling up'.&nbsp; They are two completely different stars in different stages of their life cycles.&nbsp; I find it highly unlikely that similar mechanisms are at work here.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Considering the propagation speed of the blast wave, I don't see why you would *assume* they are different mechanisms. &nbsp;&nbsp; It seems like our own sun is capable of emitting such "blast waves", particularly in the sun's more active phases. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Considering the propagation speed of the blast wave, I don't see why you would *assume* they are different mechanisms. &nbsp;&nbsp; It seems like our own sun is capable of emitting such "blast waves", particularly in the sun's more active phases. <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>I guess I don't understand why you would *assume* they are the same simply based off the speed of propogation of gasses.&nbsp; What I see is a massive outflow of gasses from the poles of a supermassive star that is most likely nearly the end of it life.&nbsp; Not sure how you *assume* this is similar to a CME's from the sun.&nbsp;</p><p>I already know where this conversation is going to end up... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I guess I don't understand why you would *assume* they are the same simply based off the speed of propogation of gasses.&nbsp; What I see is a massive outflow of gasses from the poles of a supermassive star that is most likely nearly the end of it life.&nbsp; Not sure how you *assume* this is similar to a CME's from the sun.&nbsp;I already know where this conversation is going to end up... <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>I'm specifically attempting to *not* go there. &nbsp; The point I'm trying to make is that the propgation speed of these events is quite "similar" to the propogation speed of CME events in our own solar system.&nbsp; It doesn't seem like we necessarily need a whole new 'mechanism" to explain these types of "bursts".&nbsp; In the sun's more active phases, it seems fully capable of blasting plasma into space at these sorts of velocities.&nbsp; What's so different about this event that requires anything other than a CME type event in a sun's active phase? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm specifically attempting to *not* go there. &nbsp; The point I'm trying to make is that the propgation speed of these events is quite "similar" to the propogation speed of CME events in our own solar system.&nbsp; It doesn't seem like we necessarily need a whole new 'mechanism" to explain these types of "bursts".&nbsp; In the sun's more active phases, it seems fully capable of blasting plasma into space at these sorts of velocities.&nbsp; What's so different about this event that requires anything other than a CME type event in a sun's active phase? <br /> Posted by michaelmozina</DIV></p><p>I just don't see how the propagation speed, alone, is enough to make the correlation.&nbsp; A descent slingshot and a cheap air powered pellet gun can produce material propagating at similar speeds.&nbsp; Are their mechanisms the same?</p><p>Eta C and our sun are about as different as two stars can get.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[UFmbutler]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I just don't see how the propagation speed, alone, is enough to make the correlation.&nbsp; A descent slingshot and a cheap air powered pellet gun can produce material propagating at similar speeds.&nbsp; Are their mechanisms the same?Eta C and our sun are about as different as two stars can get.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Exactly.&nbsp; If you wanted to really find out if the same mechanism producing CMEs can cause these events, the next step would be to put it into a model and see if it works.&nbsp; But I can guarantee you that if you wrote a proposal for running such a simulation, it would get turned down if your only reason for doing it is "they propagate at similar speeds".&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I just don't see how the propagation speed, alone, is enough to make the correlation.</DIV></p><p>It's not "just" the propogation speed alone, it's the fact that there is a "blast" type of event *and* a speed correlation to CME events that both fit the notion of a typical CME event.&nbsp; </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A descent slingshot and a cheap air powered pellet gun can produce material propagating at similar speeds. </DIV></p><p>Ya, but not all around the whole sun at the same time.&nbsp; Come on, </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Are their mechanisms the same?Eta C and our sun are about as different as two stars can get.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>They may be different in many respects, yet share a similar trait when it comes to CME events.&nbsp; Size of course might vary, power of the blast might vary, but some things should be similar to CME events inside our own solar system.&nbsp;&nbsp; During the active phases, our own sun generates a lot of "blast" like events which blow out plasma at the same types of speeds.&nbsp; I don't really see a need to suggest that this is not an ordinary CME type of event.&nbsp; I'm sure that there are other possibilities to consider, but shouldn't a CME event be on the top of our list because we experience similar blast like activity inside our own solar system? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Exactly.&nbsp; If you wanted to really find out if the same mechanism producing CMEs can cause these events, the next step would be to put it into a model and see if it works. </DIV></p><p>Of course I'd start with Birkeland's model and "blast" the sphere with electrons from an external variable source. </p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>But I can guarantee you that if you wrote a proposal for running such a simulation, it would get turned down if your only reason for doing it is "they propagate at similar speeds".&nbsp; <br /> Posted by UFmbutler</DIV></p><p>It's not just the similar speed aspect, it's the notion of any sun blowing out a whole bunch of plasma from around the whole sun at those kinds of speeds.&nbsp; CME events during the sun's active phases does seem to fit this same "pattern" of events.&nbsp; What other event inside our own solar system results in million mile + per hour blasts of plasma from around large parts of the sun? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p>http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2003_10_28/c3cmesm.mpg</p>http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2003_10_28/c2cmesm.mpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2003_10_28/c3cmesm.mpghttp://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2003_10_28/c2cmesm.mpg <br />Posted by michaelmozina</DIV><br /><br />Was there a point to youir links to events that occurred 5 years ago?</p><p>Does any of it support your assertion that these solar events are anything like the much more energetic events on distant stars, or are you just obfuscating, as usual?</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Was there a point to youir links to events that occurred 5 years ago?</DIV></p><p>It seems to occur more frequently during the sun's active phases.</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Does any of it support your assertion that these solar events are anything like the much more energetic events on distant stars, or are you just obfuscating, as usual? <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>I'm pointing out that CME's from our sun can easily create "blasts" that hurl plasma at 1.5 million miles per hour, just like those distant blasts we observe.&nbsp; Shouldn't CME's be considered as the top candidate to explain distance events that have similar features? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It seems to occur more frequently during the sun's active phases.I'm pointing out that CME's from our sun can easily create "blasts" that hurl plasma at 1.5 million miles per hour, just like those distant blasts we observe.&nbsp; Shouldn't CME's be considered as the top candidate to explain distance events that have similar features? <br />Posted by michaelmozina</DIV><br /><br />Not necessarily. Dynamics on more peowerful stars n3eed not apply to our pedestrian star.</p><p>It's one of the major faults of your "empirical" view. There is no basis to extrapolate to much larger or more energetic systems. Especially if you use that worthless, nasty "math" stuff.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not necessarily. Dynamics on more peowerful stars n3eed not apply to our pedestrian star.</DIV></p><p>But then we can't rule it out can we?</p><p>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It's one of the major faults of your "empirical" view. There is no basis to extrapolate to much larger or more energetic systems. Especially if you use that worthless, nasty "math" stuff. <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>All we would need to do is crank up the power supply in Birkeland's experiments.&nbsp; He actually liked that nasty math stuff.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>