Space/Time

[neutron_star69]

but a child grows and it consumes matter, so what does space expand into? more space, if so where did that space come from? or could it be that space is being recycled and re-used?

 

[harmonicaman]

Simply stated; time creates space.

 

[jatslo]

... as in: It is time to clear out some space in my garage!

 

[alkalin]

“Simply stated; time creates space.”<br /><br />Isn’t space occupied by time events that make something going on in space meaningful? Those time events do not create space.<br /><br />The original question:<br />“How can time exist in an infinite universe exept as finite artifice? The time it would take to travel to the end of the infinite universe and back is exactly the same amount of time it takes only to get half-way.”<br /><br />If space is infinite, then time is also, and cannot be used to measure ultimate space, but is useful for measurement of any limited space we wish to consider. <br />

 

[harmonicaman]

<b>Alkalin -</b><br /><br />Great points! We really don't have a very firm understanding of what time really is, but I believe it's directly connected to the creation of space itself.<br /><br />No Time = No Space: Infinite Time = Infinite Space... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

 

[doorma]

Contemplating that the universe doesn't expand into anything or into nothing hurts my brain. Speaking of my brain, I know of theories that propose that mind (thinking) is a (random) by-product of matter. Thoughts are the only thing I can think of that don't depend on space as a container. I cannot get my mind around the idea that a thing can expand into a no-thing, unless the original thing is a thought. This is the part that 's hazardous to my health, right? The "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers" sort of thing? By the way, what does "a lost packet" refer to?

 

[harmonicaman]

Hey, Doorma, join the club! You're not supposed to understand; you just have to have faith that that's the way things are... <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />I think thoughts can be more accurately described as random by-products of time, rather than by-products of matter; but that's just my opinion.<br /><br />It may help if you picture space as being newly <i>created</i> by the passage of time rather than merely expanding pre-existing space... <br /><br />----------- <br /><br />Definition of: <b>Lost Packet</b> <br /><br />It's computer geek speak -<br /><br />A "Lost Packet" is a packet of data that never reaches its destination. For example, if the network becomes congested and the traffic exceeds the momentary holding capacity (buffer space) of the router, packets will be lost. <br />

 

[neutron_star69]

okay now you say infinite time=inifnite space, so which came first? and how can time create the space?

 

[harmonicaman]

<i>"Okay now you say infinite time=inifnite space, so which came first?"</i><br /><br />Since time and space are just different manifestations of the same thing (E=mc²); I would submit that they came into being together at the same instant.<br /><br /><i>"...and how can time create the space?"</i><br /><br />That's a really heavy philosophical question which defies understanding and I don't believe even the most gifted physics theorists have created suitable models for the time and space creation conundrum.<br /><br />I think String Theory may hold some clues though. String Theory basically postulates that everything in the subatomic universe is based upon vibrations. For a vibration to occur, there must be a framework of time.<br /><br />Could it be that these vibrations of subatomic matter somehow emit time and space? Or do these vibrations absorb time and space? Note that a massive BH seems to absorb all the space and time that comes near it, but everything is not as it seems in our universe.<br /><br />I just believe that due to the apparent interconnectiveness of everything in the universe, there must be a fundamental relationship between the passage of time, the creation of space and the existence of matter and energy. <br />

 

[neutron_star69]

I dont see how even they (space/time) could have been created together.

 

[harmonicaman]

<i>"I dont see how even they (space/time) could have been created together."</i><br /><br />They're the same thing!<br /><br /><i>"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible."</i> <br /> <b> - Albert Einstein</b> (1879 - 1955) <br /><br />

 

[neutron_star69]

how do you know they are the same thing

 

[Saiph]

because GR is successful in it's descriptions and predictions of phenomena.<br /><br />GR allows us to convert between space, and time. One observer sees the objects as closer in space, but furter apart in time than another. You can swap between the two. However both agree on the "product" space-time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[neutron_star69]

so for example, for every inch of space created it would have been like a minute of time?

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

view it like this: <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />every vibration in this universe ( vibrations of diff. elements/atoms) correspond to a definite amount of time. you heard about the cesium clock right? (atomic clock) it counts how much cesium vibration/frequency could equal a second. <br /><br />so let's say cesium's frequency is 9,192,631,770 hertz (Hz = cycles/second). or just to make it simple, cesium vibrates 9,192,631,770 times a second. <br />so how do I turn the idea here?<br />every vibration in this universe consumes time.<br /><br />for every mmeter our space expands, it consumes time....a definite amount of time. If space expands forever ( as it was theorized by computation.. ), it must consume time forever. <br />w/out time, nothing can move forward. w/out space, there is nowhere for all of us (everything) to move forward.<br /><br />we must remember: time is not a product of space nor space is a product of time. they are just one. <br /><br />P.S. I'm not sure about the numbers...--- />cesium freq. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

I hope it resolves the question:<br /><br /><i>time and space----->which came first?</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>