SPACEX ANNOUNCES THE FALCON 9

[mikejz]

Edit that is correct that the Falcon V is just a reduced 9.<br /><br />Old Specs for Falcon V were 30m high, new is 47. Payload has decreased.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Given that it is reuseable..."</font><br /><br />Reusability is one of the few reasons why I can see it as being vaguely possible. It would mean that the cores of the Falcon V and Falcon IX would be interchangeable -- which would simplify refurb operations. It still seems <b>very</b> counter-intuitive to have that much waste mass on Falcon V launches. The mass figures on SpaceX's site (I'm assuming GLOW) for 9 is 640,000 lb vs 340,000 lb for the 5. Essentially this would mean that the tanks on the five are only half-full. That's a pretty good bit of wasted structure mass involved.<br /><br />If the Falcon IX has <b>always</b> been their target, and the five only meant to be a brief stepping-stone, then designing things this way means that the development time to get to the nine is minimized... at the expense of considerably throw weight for the five. We need a telepath to read Elon's mind and transcribe the contents for us here. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Given that it is reuseable..."</font><br /><br />Reusability is one of the few reasons why I can see it as being vaguely possible. It would mean that the cores of the Falcon V and Falcon IX would be interchangeable -- which would simplify refurb operations. It still seems <b>very</b> counter-intuitive to have that much waste mass on Falcon V launches. The mass figures on SpaceX's site (I'm assuming GLOW) for 9 is 640,000 lb vs 340,000 lb for the 5. Essentially this would mean that the tanks on the five are only half-full. That's a pretty good bit of wasted structure mass involved.<br /><br />If the Falcon IX has <b>always</b> been their target, and the five only meant to be a brief stepping-stone, then designing things this way means that the development time to get to the nine is minimized... at the expense of considerably throw weight for the five. We need a telepath to read Elon's mind and transcribe the contents for us here. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Old Specs for Falcon V were 30m high, new is 47. Payload has decreased. "</font><br /><br />Ick. Probably explains why the cost increased as well. Dang -- that really mucks with G-X3.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Old Specs for Falcon V were 30m high, new is 47. Payload has decreased. "</font><br /><br />Ick. Probably explains why the cost increased as well. Dang -- that really mucks with G-X3.

 

[mikejz]

Yes and no, depends on the reuseable nature of the 2nd stage (If it already has deorbit ability, RCS, TPS) etc, you might equal out on the weight...... <br /><br />Also The Falcon 9-S9 is projected to be around $1,500/lb to LEO.

 

[mikejz]

Yes and no, depends on the reuseable nature of the 2nd stage (If it already has deorbit ability, RCS, TPS) etc, you might equal out on the weight...... <br /><br />Also The Falcon 9-S9 is projected to be around $1,500/lb to LEO.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...you might equal out on the weight......"</font><br /><br />Possibly. I've already been composing a G-X3 post on the subject of the reusable second-stage and the implications thereof. Now have to add in the reduced payload to it.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...you might equal out on the weight......"</font><br /><br />Possibly. I've already been composing a G-X3 post on the subject of the reusable second-stage and the implications thereof. Now have to add in the reduced payload to it.

 

[mikejz]

I have a very strong feeling that Musk already has a manned version past the drawing board.<br /><br />Seeing that Spacex has aquired the assets of Beal Aerospace, I wonder if the 2nd stage has to do with an aquitisiton of Krisler assets/rights/personal.

 

[mikejz]

I have a very strong feeling that Musk already has a manned version past the drawing board.<br /><br />Seeing that Spacex has aquired the assets of Beal Aerospace, I wonder if the 2nd stage has to do with an aquitisiton of Krisler assets/rights/personal.

 

[nacnud]

From the spaceX site:<br /><i>SpaceX initially intended to follow its first vehicle development, Falcon 1, with the intermediate class Falcon 5 launch vehicle. However, in response to customer requirements for low cost enhanced launch capability, SpaceX accelerated development of an EELV-class vehicle, upgrading Falcon 5 to Falcon 9. SpaceX has sold Falcon 9 to a US government customer. SpaceX still plans to make Falcon 5 available in late 2007.</i><br /><br />So it seems market forces have caused the changes to the design of the Falcon 5. I think such flexibility is a good sign that SpaceX is trying to build what is needed not just what they can do easily. Also the reusability aspect of the design is not factored into the prices, there could be room for price cuts there eventualy.<br />

 

[nacnud]

From the spaceX site:<br /><i>SpaceX initially intended to follow its first vehicle development, Falcon 1, with the intermediate class Falcon 5 launch vehicle. However, in response to customer requirements for low cost enhanced launch capability, SpaceX accelerated development of an EELV-class vehicle, upgrading Falcon 5 to Falcon 9. SpaceX has sold Falcon 9 to a US government customer. SpaceX still plans to make Falcon 5 available in late 2007.</i><br /><br />So it seems market forces have caused the changes to the design of the Falcon 5. I think such flexibility is a good sign that SpaceX is trying to build what is needed not just what they can do easily. Also the reusability aspect of the design is not factored into the prices, there could be room for price cuts there eventualy.<br />

 

[krrr]

"What also is intresting is that the annoucenment does not seem to talk about any new engines beyond the Merlin. He seems to of dropped the option of a RL-10 upper stage as well."<br /><br />Somehow the figures given for the Falcon IX don't add up. A 290-tonne two-stage LV using only low-performance engines (vacuum ISP 303s) simply isn't able to lift 9.3 tonnes to LEO. It would have to have a dry/full ratio of 4% which I think isn't possible.<br /><br />So maybe the numbers given are still based on a cryogenic upper stage.

 

[krrr]

"What also is intresting is that the annoucenment does not seem to talk about any new engines beyond the Merlin. He seems to of dropped the option of a RL-10 upper stage as well."<br /><br />Somehow the figures given for the Falcon IX don't add up. A 290-tonne two-stage LV using only low-performance engines (vacuum ISP 303s) simply isn't able to lift 9.3 tonnes to LEO. It would have to have a dry/full ratio of 4% which I think isn't possible.<br /><br />So maybe the numbers given are still based on a cryogenic upper stage.

 

[shoogerbrugge]

Or they might try to scare LockMart and boeing a bit more. Trying to bluff and who knows he might make some money out of it. (take over or something like that)<br /><br />I would say by the way that the Falcon V has a bigger chance in its market share then the market of the Falcon IX. Boeing is goning to fase out those Delta 2s, now who is going to launch the GPS sats?<br /><br />Its kinda suicide to develop 3 LV at the same time, no matter how much commonality they got.

 

[shoogerbrugge]

Or they might try to scare LockMart and boeing a bit more. Trying to bluff and who knows he might make some money out of it. (take over or something like that)<br /><br />I would say by the way that the Falcon V has a bigger chance in its market share then the market of the Falcon IX. Boeing is goning to fase out those Delta 2s, now who is going to launch the GPS sats?<br /><br />Its kinda suicide to develop 3 LV at the same time, no matter how much commonality they got.

 

[mikejz]

Well the Falcon I is already designed, its just waiting for final testing. I guess the V/9 config is to make it basically just one LV.

 

[mikejz]

Well the Falcon I is already designed, its just waiting for final testing. I guess the V/9 config is to make it basically just one LV.

 

[mikejz]

Check out the Jobs section of SpaceX--they are looking to hire a lot of people. I bet they got another investor or two. <br /><br />Also why is having a bigger fairing worth paying $8 Million more? I was always under the impression that they were generally cheap.

 

[mikejz]

Check out the Jobs section of SpaceX--they are looking to hire a lot of people. I bet they got another investor or two. <br /><br />Also why is having a bigger fairing worth paying $8 Million more? I was always under the impression that they were generally cheap.

 

[nacnud]

Well the DOD invested a cool $100M...

 

[nacnud]

Well the DOD invested a cool $100M...

 

[mikejz]

That was for the Falcon I--and after you take out costs, SpaceX maybe has $10-15 Mil in profit from that to reinvest. That is not even close to the cost of R&D for the Falcon 9.

 

[mikejz]

That was for the Falcon I--and after you take out costs, SpaceX maybe has $10-15 Mil in profit from that to reinvest. That is not even close to the cost of R&D for the Falcon 9.