speed: expansion of space or individual motion?

[unlearningthemistakes]

I respectfully ask anyone to post their concept about speed, <particularly light>...<br /><br />Premise:<br /><br />I came across several thread implying, if not directly stating, that speed <light /> is because of space moving or spreading around us...<br /><br />the premise could appear (visual):<br /><br />as a rolling pin resting over a very wide slippery silk cloth and the cloth moving which in turn makes the rolling pin look moving/rolling but in fact it did not get anywhere....<br /><br />it is the cloth that has expanded/spread and not the rolling pin that moved..<br /><br /><<light-space analogy />> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[scull]

I'm not sure I understand.....<br /><br />The Universe is expanding, but it's not making me (individual motion) accelerate. I mean, I don't feel it.<br /><br /><br /><br />?

 

[eric2006]

Post deleted by Eric2006: To avoid further grammatical dissection.

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">If you were in a space ship and accelerated to the speed of light to your destination.</font><br /><br />Not at the speed of light, unless you convert the spaceship to light.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">You could see your destination (for instance a distant star) getting closer.</font><br /><br />We do not know of any particles a photon could absorb in order see.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">How would you know that the star was not comming to you? One could say "Oh, I feel the acceleration and the G-force pushes me back into the seat, So I must be the one who is moving".</font><br /><br />Force=mass*acceleration.<br />A photon has no mass. A photon cannot accelerate.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">But if you started out at the speed of light (a photon maybe)</font><br /><br />Yes, a photon.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">you would not feel any acceleration. So would it not appear to the photon that it came into existence and was annhilated at that very same instant?</font><br /><br />Photons do not age.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Even though from our observation it took 1 million years for it to reach us. Would the photon say "Whoa.... everything came right at me all at once"?</font><br /><br />Photons cannot speak.<br />Although they do not age.<br />We could say the same thing about our journey to another country, which takes several hours, if our perception and thinking are really distorted <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

 

[eric2006]

I'm sorry. In the future I will post the words "Hypothetical" in bold prior to my statements in order to avoid any further confusion.<br /><br />So the spaceship would have to be converted to light. Cool, thanks. I will make a note of that.<br /><br />Photons, could not absorb any particles in order to see. Let me write that one down also. You forgot to mention how a photon would need an eye and brain and all that good stuff. Come on now, tighten up.<br /><br />"Force=mass*acceleration. <br />A photon has no mass. A photon cannot accelerate. "<br /><br />Ok, You're getting ahead of me now. We are still talking about people here in the post so far. No mention of photons yet. But, you're getting so excited about sharing your intellect you have gotten ahead of yourself. I know it's hard but just try to contain yourself. There is plenty of trashing to do farther into the post.<br /><br />No wait...Here we go....<br /><br />"Yes, a photon"<br /><br />Oh, yes! Yes! The eureka moment! No really, thanks. The pleasure is all yours.<br /><br /><br />"Photons do not age."<br /><br />And thanks so much for that one. It was much easier to say it in four words than with the sentence I used. Thanks for the lesson on Conservation of Vocabulary". Short and sweet/Nice and neat.<br /><br />"Photons cannot speak. <br />Although they do not age."<br /><br />What does it's ability not to age have to do with it's handicap of being a mute?

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">"Photons cannot speak. <br />Although they do not age." <br /><br />What does it's ability not to age have to do with it's handicap of being a mute?</font><br /><br />Nothing. I misstated.<br /><br />There is no connection as far as I'm aware.<br /><br />The word speaking, in its real meaning, applies to movement of molecules in longitudinal waves. Photons do not produce such phenomenon, except, perhaps in rare unimaginable cases.<br /><br />Sometimes I use the word "although" to express my consideration, in this case, the consideration that photons do not age. "I didn't mean that aging causes speaking or that speaking causes aging."<br /><br />http://www.google.com/search?q="photons+do+not+age"

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

jesus christ..!!<br /><br />to eric and kmar please take the sass somewhere else..<br /><br />let us be friends here...<br /><br /><br />now can we start sharing...? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

great...<br /><br />Iam getting your point... its clear<br />it all about relative-ness..<br /><br />what about annihilated? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

kmar, what about your opinion?<br /><br /><br />do you think a speeding car is not actually in its speed at all, but part of its speed is derived from the earth spinning? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[kmarinas86]

<font color="yellow">do you think a speeding car is not actually in its speed at all, but part of its speed is derived from the earth spinning?</font><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />Speed is not conserved, but momentum is. So the real derivation comes from the earth's momentum. Once something lands on earth, it transfers momentum. Speed is something that cannot be "transferred".

 

[newtonian]

unlearningthemistakes - On thread theme:<br /><br />If inflation theory is accurate, and our universe expanded faster than light for a short time, how can one accept that model and still believe in the theory of relativity?<br /><br />To me the point that Saiph has posted elsewhere that the motion is not individual but that of the space-time fabric of space would solve the contradiction and allow one to believe in both relativity theory and inflation theory.<br /><br />The same would go, btw, for future (or present) FTL expansion caused by dark energy or whatever.<br /><br />Hopefully someone else can find a link to some research on this since my time is limited.<br /><br />We must appreciate two things:<br /><br />1. We may not fully appreciate the gravity of the matter.<br /><br />2. It may involve making light of the matter.<br /><br />Half kidding, btw.

 

[kmarinas86]

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node82.html

 

[eric2006]

"Nothing. I misstated."<br /><br />Ok. Just don't let it happen again. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[eric2006]

jesus christ..!! <br /><br />to eric and kmar please take the sass somewhere else.. <br /><br />let us be friends here... <br /><br /><br />now can we start sharing...? "<br /><br /><br /><br />Now you must be fair about it. In order not to affend anyone's religion you must make reference to everyone's God. You left out the Annunaki for kmar.

 

[scull]

If....<br /><br />silk cloth = space<br />pins = galaxies<br /><br />then....<br /><br />space between the galaxies expands, and LIGHT stretches with it.<br /><br />This stretching is NOT caused by galaxies moving apart through space; it is the space itself that expands, carrying galaxies along for the ride.<br /><br /><br />s--<br /><br />

 

[newtonian]

scull - I think you've got the model correct!<br /><br />Except that there may be a paradox:<br /><br />Matter may be able to expand FTL while light may not be able to expand (stretch) FTL!<br /><br />In other words, stars expanding FTL beyond our visibility horizon will never be seen by us (never is perhaps too extreme a word here) as it would be red-shifted to oblivion.<br /><br />I think we have gone beyond what is known, btw.

 

[nexium]

Suppose space is expanding 10 million miles per hour over a distance of one billion light years = 10,000 miles per hour over a distance of one million light years = 10 miles per hour over a distance of one thousand light years = 0.01 miles per hour over a distance of one light year. My point being: rapid expansion of the universe as a whole becomes tiny within a galaxy and negligible over distances we experience on our planet. Is the wart on my wrist expanding with the Universe? Not enough to measurable with present instrumentation. Perhaps the expansion occurs only between galactic groups? Neil