Star at Bethlehem

[alokmohan]

In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage." Gospel of St Matthew<br /><br />What was it that summoned the Magi to make a long and dangerous journey to a foreign land? What was this star and its urgent message? The clues can be found in one of the Gospels and in other religious texts of the time that also describe the birth of Jesus as well as in the words of medieval monks and astronomers. Two thousand years ago only the Wise Men saw it, but if you solve the clues then anyone with a computer and a simple starmap program can witness the Star of Bethlehem.<br /><br />The Star is only mentioned in the Gospel of St Matthew, though the Gospel of St Luke also gives an account of the birth of Christ. Why is there is no mention of the star in Luke? Although Mark is the earliest Gospel and provides much of the material for both Matthew and Luke, depicting Jesus as a man and the son of God, it is Matthew's Gospel – with the aim of proclaiming Jesus as the fulfilment of ancient prophecy – that is taken as the first one because it provides a bridge between the Old and New testaments.<br /><br />But the Star is not only mentioned in the Bible. There is a non-biblical text of the time called the Protoevangelium of St James. In it the description of the star is very different; "And the wise men said; 'We saw how an indescribably greater star shone among these stars and dimmed them so that they no longer shone.' "<br /><br />The explanation for the difference may lie with the need for the writer of the Protoevangelium to associate the Messiah with a great star. For centuries rebel leaders and self-proclaimed Messiahs were said to have their own star signifying divine approval. In the second century AD, for example, the rabbi Aquiba proclaimed Simeon Bar Kosba as the Messiah. Kosba th

 

[rfoshaug]

A nice and cozy story, but there's no reason to believe that it actually happened. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[origin]

The part of Matthew that really cracks me up is the begining, when the gospel goes through this long drawn out geneology to prove that Joseph is a direct descendent of king David. This is important to christians because it is part of the prophesy; that Jesus is descended from David. The funny part, of course, is that Joseph and Jesus aren't suppose to be related. <br /><br />Nice logic....<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[docm]

The prophecy was that He would be a member of the House of David, regardless of how He attained that status. When Joseph accepted Him as his own that closed the deal.<br /><br />The first thing that needs to be said is that the Greek word <i>aster</i> in Matthew 2:2-10 is a more general term than our English word star; it can refer to any kind of heavenly body—a star, a planet, an asteroid, a comet or a meteor. <br /><br />The three most widely accepted explanations for the star of the magi identify it as; <br /><br />1: a conjunction of planets<br /><br />2: a comet<br /><br />3: a supernova<br /><br />Cases have been made for all three, but the date is fuzzy because of calendar changes etc. and this opens it up to several candidates.<br /><br />One compelling case is for an event in 5BC variously described as a nova or comet, which is confirmed by both Chinese and Korean astrologers. Either of those would fit and have endured for a long time.<br /><br />In all there were 7 major conjunctions in 2-3 BC. 3 were conjunctions of Jupiter and Regulus and another was between Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC. The latter would of course have been particularly striking to astrologers of the day being the merger of two planets, even more so because it involved Jupiter. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

This too should be transferred to phenomena <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>One compelling case is for an event in 5BC variously described as a nova or comet, which is confirmed by both Chinese and Korean astrologers. Either of those would fit and have endured for a long time. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />The comet Holmes came to mind when you said that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Are they a bright as star of Bethlehem?

 

[qso1]

As I recall, the star of Bethlehem was said to have been bright, maybe the brightest star in the sky at the time. However, since no data is available as to brightness and duration, its hard to determine if it was a comet, Nova or one of our own bright planets like Venus was mistakenly identified.<br /><br />A nova or supernova would be. A comet, that would depend on how close it passes and if the tail is pointed opposite earth so that it would appear to be a bright fuzzy star. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Misidentification by astrologers of the day would not be very likely as they were quite proficient at tracking celestial objects. A comet, like the Jupiter-Venus conjunction, would have special significance to them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

While not likely, its still possible and it may not have even been astrologers. Especially if it were a comet previously unknown to them. Were also talking an event that wasn't well documented from an astronomy viewpoint that occured some 2,000 years ago and the translations the Bible itself has undergone since then.<br /><br />If we have a precise date, one could use Starry Night or Celestia and see what was in the sky at the time, but what I saw in this account was around 8 BC. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Most reconciliations of the documents of the time place His birth sometime in or before 3 BC and as far back as 6 BC and His death between 30 AD and 33 AD in the month of April. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

Thats the reason its so difficult to determine what the star of Bethlehem might have been and even using the astronomy software I mentioned is not very effective at trying to determine the star of Bethlehem, what it was. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[rfoshaug]

But even if it was a nova/supernova/comet/planets etc., they would not have been precise enough to guide the wise men to that exact spot where Jesus was born. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Thats a whole nother issue. I'm mainly looking at what the star itself might have been knowing I'll probably never know the answer with 100% certainty. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Don't forget that the basic astrolabe had been invented either by Apollonius of Perge (in Turkey; 262 BC – 190 BC) or the Greek astronomer Hipparchus (190 BC – 120 BC), depending on who you believe. <br /><br />Then there is the Antikythera mechanism, an astrologers/astronomers analog computer if ever there was one, dating from 100-150 BC. Clockwork like this wasn't seen again for another 1,500 years.<br /><br />In any case the means to navigate moderate distances on land by the stars (or other celestial objects), triangulation or by surveying and the ability to accurately calculate celestial positions were available to astrologers & astronomers at least 100 years before Jesus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[runk1]

"His death between 30 AD and 33 AD in the month of April."<br /><br />Actually the supposed death of this character, occured in early to late Fall. With the birth actually in late Spring. Christmas and Easter are celebrated on the days they are because those two dates have been "Holy" long before Christ (equinox's). Early Christians avoided persecution by holding their holidays on already existing holidays (so no one would notice them taking extra days off work <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

 

[docm]

<font color="yellow">Actually the supposed death of this character, occured in early to late Fall.</font><br /><br />No study <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br />Jesus was crucified during Passover, which starts on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of <i>Nisan</i>. This can be anywhere from March to April according to how the Hebrew calendar falls that year. Most certainly <i><b>not</b></i> in the fall.<br /><br />The name <i>Nisan</i> is actually Babylonian; in the Torah it's called <i>Aviv</i>, referring to a ripening stage of barley that occurs during that month. <br /><br />As for your inference that He or his crucification were fictional; the vast majority of historians and archaeologists disagree with that notion. In fact Josephus (a Hebrew historian) and Tacitus (Roman Historian) wrote of Him and his activities contemporaneously. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[robnissen]

While there is strong biblical support that Jeses died on Nisan 14 (I kinda like that month name), there is no biblical support that he was born anywhere near December. Whether the bible is accurate should be the topic of a different thread not in SS&A. But putting that aside, the ONLY reason that Christmas is celebrated on Dec. 25, is because when Rome converted to Christianity, it already had a huge winter celebration then (Saturnalia), so they just renamed Saturnalia, Christmas. Thus, Starry Night software cannot help answer this question, since the year of birth, the month of birth and the day of birth are completely unknown. That's pretty much a grand slam of no knowledge.

 

[jsmoody]

It was an alien spacecraft in a geosynchronous orbit.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> No amount of belief makes something a fact" - James Randi </div>

 

[docm]

Oh, I agree that his birthday was very likely spring/summer...no problem there, and if I were an early Christian I'd move the celebration to 'blend in' as well. Better that then being fed to the lions <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <br /><br />It was the assertion that he <i>DIED</i> in the fall that set me off. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ashish27]

Its difficult to trace back if some kind of supernova or GRB occured at time, a super computer is needed for that oeration and obviously Starry Night isn't going to help.<br /><br />It could also be the fact that the story of the star is entirely made up, this type of things are common in religious literature.

 

[alokmohan]

Yes Ashis.When gods are born they to justify speciality.Apocryphals as they say.