Strange dwarf planet Ceres may have formed at the icy edges of the solar system

[Admin]

Ceres is the most dominant member of the asteroid belt but it doesn't look like the other asteroids.

Strange dwarf planet Ceres may have formed at the icy edges of the solar system : Read more

 

[steve_foston]

Hmmm Ceres has a lot of ammonia, this may be useful if we do try to create a colony on Mars, I may be wrong but I don't think that there is a lot of nitrogen on Mars so we can extract oxygen from its atmosphere but what about the nitrogen - after all the air that we breathe is 80% nitrogen. Perhaps we can mine it on Ceres and ship it back to Mars. Ammonia is useful for fertilizers as well.

 

[Catastrophe]

In Depth | Ceres – NASA Solar System Exploration

Cat

P.S. It seems that the logistics of carrying all these useful components are never described in detail - and, of course practical descriptions of the separation proceswses.

Anyone up to providing suggested plans with all practical details?

 

[rod]

Some of the details are provided more in the reference paper cited. Here are some observations from me after digesting it

From the space.com report I note at least 3500 Ceres size asteroids are used in the new simulation model to explain the origin of the one Ceres we do see today in the main belt asteroid system. These 3500 postulated Ceres exist beyond where Saturn is today in the early solar system, at least 4.5 billion years ago (I assume). The reference paper link cited, Dynamical origin of the Dwarf Planet Ceres, https://arxiv.org/abs/2202.09238, 18-Feb-2022 in the abstract shows 3600 Ceres size asteroids used in the simulation. The paper link is 34-pages PDF, https://arxiv.org/pdf/2202.09238.pdf.

The paper shows Ceres is about 1/3 the total mass of the main belt asteroids today and its composition does not fit well with the other asteroids. The simulation uses a trans-Saturnian disk with a disk mass of 30 earth masses and states about the total number of Ceres size asteroids used, “We assume that the primordial disk beyond Saturn contained 3600 - 14000 Ceres-sized planetesimals (Nesvorny &Vokrouhlicky 2016).” I like the paper and it is easy to read and review. Various assumptions are documented clearly, and the doctrine of uniformity must be assumed to run these calculations. Today in the ecliptic we do not see masses like this near or beyond where Saturn orbits. We do not see some 3600-14000 Ceres size asteroids out there or 30 earth masses in a postulated protoplanetary disk in the trans-Saturnian region. The NASA ADS Abstract is Dynamical origin of the Dwarf Planet Ceres, https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2022arXiv220209238R/abstract, Feb-2022.

One problem I note in various papers is defining the MMSN in the trans-Saturnian disk region, about 10-20 AU from the Sun and how much mass the postulated disk contained. "Context. Modern models of the formation of ice giants attempt to account for the formation of Uranus and Neptune within the protoplanetary disk lifetime. These models assume a higher initial surface density well above that of the minimum mass solar nebula model and/or the formation of all giant planets in an inner compact configuration. Other effects include planetesimals migration due to gas drag and the small size of the accreted planetesimals, which accelerates the accretion rate. However, at present, none of these models account for the spin properties of the ice giants.", https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011A&A...534A..28P/abstract, October 2011.

It seems the answers using the protoplanetary disk model(s) and MMSN are still a work in progress When it comes to viewing Ceres, I do enjoy tracking the asteroid using my telescopes. However, I can only track and see one Ceres out there.

 

[Catastrophe]

Rod, I was thinking of the weight of gas to be transported, and at what pressure? What size craft and of what weight the craft to withstand the pressure, and the weight of fuel to be carried.

Have you seen the answers to these questions?

Cat

 

[rod]

Rod, I was thinking of the weight of gas to be transported, and at what pressure? What size craft and of what weight the craft to withstand the pressure, and the weight of fuel to be carried.

Have you seen the answers to these questions?

Cat

Negative at my end Cat. This looks like rocket science

 

[Catastrophe]

Rod, any idea of the mass of gas they want to move around? Or the fuel/gas mass ratio?

Cat

 

[rod]

Rod, any idea of the mass of gas they want to move around? Or the fuel/gas mass ratio?

Cat

Clueless at my end Cat.

 

[Catastrophe]

Rod, me too. I was wondering about all these good people who want to provide Mars with a new atmosphere, and keep it? I have never seen any practical details such as those I mentioned.

I doubt they have ever been estimated, but I stand open to correction.

Cat

 

[Pogo]

It seems that many of those who think ‘Hey, look! Ammonia on Ceres, we can use that to provide nitrogen to Mars.” and many other similar concepts without consideration of the energy requirements to get it there, also the fact that Mars has lost most of its atmosphere because it’s too little, and how to keep what they dump where it belongs. We’ve had some of those conversations on this forum, cool thought experiments, but not even close to practical.

 

[billslugg]

Need to put a magnetic field at Mars' L1 point (about 320 Mars radii towards the Sun) with a strength of 1-2 Tesla (over what area I don't know) in order to shield the nascent Mars atmosphere from degradation due to Solar energetic particles.
Another proposal would take gases from one of Mars' moons, ionize them and put them in the same orbit. This would make an electrical current which would generate the needed field. Both proposals would be immensely expensive and take a very long time to implement.