Surviving on Titan....

[heyo]

Greetings all. I am kid of new to the forum so have been doing a lot of reading on the earlier threads in this forum. One that I found interesting was the heated discussion about surviving (or more like dying very quickly) on Mars without a space suit and physiological effects of a vacuum and lack of oxygen.<br /><br />Now I can't help but wonder, what if you were on Titan and you just stepped out of the airlock in regular street clothes?<br /><br />My guess is that your body would almost instantly freeze solid, you lungs would turn to ice if you took a breath. It's easy to presume there'd be no way to keep yourself warm in that kind of temperatures, but from what I understand, people have survived very extreme temperatres exploring Earth's poles, well under 100 below I believe.<br /><br />How long would it take for you to freeze? If you wore layers of arctic-exploration type clothing would it sustain you a minute or two longer?<br /><br />The presure is />1 bar so pressure probably wouldn't be a problem. What if you had a tank of heated oxygen to breathe through a regulator (electrically warmed to 98.6) but still had your street clothes on?<br /><br />What effect would the chemical composition there have on your body?<br /><br />I am curious what the minds that post here think about this. (If it's already been discussed, forgive me that I missed it)<br /><br />Heyo

 

[Leovinus]

I have to believe that if you just had street clothes on, you'd freeze solid. If you're talking layers upon layers of jackets and gloves and boots and every single bit of your skin and eyes were completely covered, then you might have a chance assuming you had something to breathe. But hey, now we're talking about a space suit, aren't we? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[heyo]

Probably right.... I wonder if you opened the airlock and took off running across the Titanian landscape in your flip flops and boxer shorts, how many meters you'd make it away from the hab. Or maybe if you were dressed for arctic exploration, with earmuffs and goggles, how far you'd make it. Add a O2 tank to that and you might make it even farther, no?<br /><br />Heyo

 

[Leovinus]

Have you ever been in a science lab with liquid nitrogen? Ever dipped something into it? Now I don't know how the temp of liquid N2 compares to Titan surface temperature, but I have to believe it's gotta be the same effect. We're mostly water and on Titan the water makes very hard rocks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[larper]

Actually, manned exploration of Titan might be easier than Mars.<br /><br />You don't need a pressure suit, you only need to stay warm. Thus, all of the flexibility problems of a pressure suit go away. Just need oxygen. <br /><br />The atmosphere contains a lot of nitrogen, so you only need to resuply Oxygen to make "air".<br /><br />There is most likely large quantities of water ice. Water is free and Oxygen can be extracted.<br /><br />Most of Titan is "fuel". Supply some Oxygen, and you have heat, power, etc. You might be able to drive a fairly normal internal combustion vehicle. Don't have to worry about cooling it, so no radiator. You fuel tank is liquid Oxygen (or O2/N2 mix), not liquid fuel. <br /><br />The only problems are really exposure to the external temperatures.<br /><br /><br /><br />Now, I am being kind of facetious here, but I would also be interested in how possible some of this really is.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Vote </font><font color="#3366ff">Libertarian</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

Your body has a relatively high specific heat, but we are talking about an environment just a few Kelvins above the temp of liquid nitrogen. An important few, certainly. But if you've ever seen the experiments where someone dips a rose into a flask of LN2, you know it's not good for the rose.<br /><br />Let's give our Titan runner some goggles so his eyes don't frost over in the first 3 seconds, and something sturdier than flip-flops so his feet don't break off. There doesn't appear to be anything caustic or acidic in the air, and the pressure is certainly tolerable, so the discomfort would be mostly the deathly cold.<br /><br />Oxygen for breathing isn't necessary, since he'll be frozen solid before he runs out of air.

 

[astrophoto]

What's the radiation like on Titan's surface? Minus the numbing cold and volatility of the surface, it doesnt sound half bad for exploration ...

 

[heyo]

I tend to agree. What about the guy in the same getup as an arctic explorer. Layers and layers of jackets, sweaters, parkas, and goggles. (Not a space suit)<br /><br />I wonder how long he can contain his body heat before his temperature innevitable drops. I guess it's even possible that earthly clothing materials might just shatter at that temperature. (see the above poster's liquid nitrogen example)<br /><br />Still, I guess the pressure not being a problem, it'd be a relative easy place to explore, aside from transportation to and from.<br /><br />Heyo<br /><br />

 

[bobvanx]

>>manned exploration<br /><br />I wonder what the radiation environment is on Titan?<br /><br />With a nuclear power source, a Titan colony could actually be really comfortable. Crack the ice into oxygen and hydrogen, make fertilizer with the nitrogen, burn the methane into CO2 and water vapor, plenty of raw feedstock to make plastics underfoot, have your nuclear plant running sunlamps to grow food...<br /><br />If there really are ice volcanoes, then that might be enough of a temperature gradient to do useful work, too.

 

[Leovinus]

Now the low sunlight and haze must make the surface very dim and depressing. Not a fun place to live. I bet you couldn't even see Saturn through the haze. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

Yes, the scientists are hinting at that.<br /><br />Which is why a colony would want to crack ice into oxygen, burning up the methane into CO2 and H2O, until we clear that atmosphere up a little bit.

 

[Leovinus]

Mars looks positively pleasant compared to that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[meteo]

Or possibly some sort of hydro-power tidal/hydrocarbon "river" that is assuming the hydrocarbon is viscous enough and you could find a material that could last.

 

[silylene old]

I bet you could remain conscious a couple of minutes with a breathing apparatus, just wearing streetclothes. Then the frostbite would get you.<br /><br />Now, if you decided to skinny dip in one of the methane lakes, you would freeze up very quickly. Conciousness would be lost in a matter of seconds.<br /><br />Here is an account of Antarctica, which would be postively hot and balmy compared to Titan:<br /><i>I will say that -76F is a bit nippy. Your skin can freeze in less than 30 seconds. When my skin has caught the wind, it is painful instead of cold. We are supplied very good cold weather gear in New Zealand before the trip down. Most of the time, I work inside, and just wear jeans and a sweatshirt. I am living in a desert. Antarctica is the coldest, driest, and windiest place on earth. The humidity is 5-10%, and I have never seen a plant growing outside.</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[mcbethcg]

I think it is unreasonable to make comparisons between LIQIUD nitrogen and the gaseous atmosphere of Titan, as many here have. <br /><br />True- the temperatures are the same. But the difference lies in the rate heat transfer. As an obvious example, a person can easily survive in street clothes for days outside on earth in 30 degree F, in the air. Dump that same person into a pool of saltwater at the same temperature, and they freeze to death quickly indeed.<br /><br />I think that cold weather gear for these temperatures could be made, much easier than building space suits.<br /><br />Mars requires space suits. Period. As far as human physiology is concerned, it's a vacuum. If there were habitats there, the occupants would quickly die if it sprung a leak.<br /><br />In addition, Titan has more useful and available chemicals. <br /><br />

 

[robnissen]

Actually, scientists at the South Pole regularly survive exposure to -100 while naked. They have a little tradition down there of the "300 Club." To become a member, the outside temperature must be at least -100. You must then sit naked in the sauna at 200. You must then only put on tennis shoes, and ran to and back to the flagpole. Once you have down this, you are an official member of the "300 Club." <br /><br />I tend to agree with most here, that with Oxygen, and VERY warm clothing, humans could survive relatively easy on Titan.<br /><br />The big problem I see, is that any spark that came in contact with your oxygen supply would be the end of you and those around you. You are pretty much living in the middle of a gasoline tank on Titan. Great Thread BTW.

 

[meteo]

P=D*g*thickness<br />If the atmosphere is twice as thick as earth's, 150% pressure, g=1.3 m/s^2. So I figure the density would be about (rough guess) />10kg/m compared to 1000kg/m for water, 50kg/m for styrafoam, and 1.2 kg/m for surface air on Earth. In any case heat conduction would be a lot faster than on Earth. <br /><br />Initailly I thought that you would be allright if you REALLY bundled up but now I have some doubts.

 

[mcbethcg]

The air density inside the snow suit, under the exterior layer of impermeable fabric, would be the nearly the same as on Earth, though, because it would mostly be warm nitrogen and oxygen..<br /><br />The snow suits would have to be awesome- admitedly. But not as awesome as a space suit, I believe.

 

[centsworth_II]

"The snow suits would have to be awesome..."<br /><br />I remember when Huygens landed it was reported that after being on the surface of Titan for awhile, I think all the way to the end of communications with Cassini (more than an hour), the interior of Huygens was a comfortable room temperature. Jean Pierre Lebreton, the science leader, was asked about that and he said it was due to 10cm (4 inches) of foam insulation. Not unreasonable for a protective suit.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">I think it is unreasonable to make comparisons between LIQIUD nitrogen and the gaseous atmosphere of Titan, as many here have. <br /></font><br />I completely agree with you!<br /><br />That's why I said you should be able to survive at least a couple of minutes in the atmosphere...by would freeze very quickly if you took a methane-lake swim. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

>>South Pole..."300 Club."<br /><br />On Titan, we'd get the "400 Club."

 

[centsworth_II]

The "300 club" is in fahrenheit. If the "400 club" is in centigrade (or kelvin) a conversion would need to be done to compare the two. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[meteo]

http://users.wpi.edu/~ierardi/FireTools/air_prop.html<br />http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/24_156.html<br />http://www.electronics-cooling.com/Resources/EC_Articles/sep98/techdata.htm<br /><br />"According to this theory, the thermal conductivity is proportional to the heat capacity per unit volume, the average gas velocity, and the mean free path. As the dynamic viscosity is proportional to the product of density, velocity and mean free path, it follows that the thermal conductivity is also proportional to the viscosity. In practice, the relationships are much more complicated and a high accuracy is not to be expected by deriving the thermal conductivity from the much more easily measured physical properties mentioned above."<br /><br />I would have thought conductivity would inceasce as the the air density went up. So from what I can gather thermal conductivity would be at least a factor of 3 LESS than on earth. With the low wind and now much lower thermal conductivity maybe you would be just fine strolling out with standard arctic gear and an oxygen tank. <br /><br />Edit: Decreace in thermal conductivity by factor of 3 due to decreace in temperature assumed a density of 3kg/m when it is in fact 10kg/m. Would the density then counteract the decreace in thermal conductivity due to temperature. <br /><br />In other words is -98k on Titan different from -98k on Earth? I'm lost. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[bobvanx]

The thought of strolling around in a flammable atmosphere sure gives me the willies.<br /><br />I spark getting out of the van, touching doorknobs, shaking people's hands... I'd really want to make sure that my O2 and Titan's flamable environment stayed separate.

 

[vogon13]

Titan atmosphere mostly nitrogen, should dilute flammability of atmosphere somewhat. Astronaut breathing mixture probably would reflect earth composition of roughly 80% N2 and 20%O2 so breathing mask leakage diluted oxidizer too. Low, low, low temperature of reactants (away from presumably not yet popsicled astronaut) should further reduce savagery of chemical deflagration. I think the room I'm sitting in is a bigger fire hazard right now than this scenario. Appreciate more input! <br /><br /><br /><br />Secret's in the sauce.<br />Sipsey <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>