teleoperated bots to moon

[thereiwas]

It would be very expensive returning that ore to Earth. But we don't need it here. You use it on the moon to build things <font color="yellow">there</font> or in lunar or Earth orbit. In Shackleton's case the product is rocket propellant in LEO.

 

[nyarlathotep]

Jim is correct. With current propulsion technology, a robotic mission will not be economic unless you can find a suitable sucker to pay for it.<br /><br />I suggest NASA.

 

[nyarlathotep]

<i>So billions of tons of ore aren't enough to break even on the cost of returning them to Earth, and the consequent catalysis of extra-terrestrial resourcing industry? </i><br /><br />You can move the ore cheaply from LLO, but breaking free from and landing on the lunar surface requires very high thrust and unless you're going to simply crash low value payloads like ice, this is only available with a chemical or low efficiency nuclear thermal system. Further, wasting precious lunar water on propulsion would be THE textbook definition of tragedy of the commons. This should NEVER EVER be allowed to happen.<br /><br />I think you would probably need to build either a space elevator or mass driver before you could even think about economic surface activity.

 

[nimbus]

Thank you Nyarlathotep, J05H, ThereIWas. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

Shackleton's proposal is exactly that - to turn lunar water into propellant and ferry it to LEO.<br /><br />I'm not sure how an elevator would work on the moon - too slow a spin. A mass driver I like, for getting things into LLO at least. But a mass driver able to reach Earth is a weapon.

 

[MeteorWayne]

What lunar water is that exactly?<br /><br />The moon is horribly dry. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

There is some evidence of underground ice in deep craters near the poles. Not conclusive as yet.

 

[j05h]

<i>> There is some evidence of underground ice in deep craters near the poles. Not conclusive as yet.</i><br /><br />Whereas Mars is known to have vast quantities of H2O locked up in the poles and dusty glaciers. Elyisium Planitia really is the "Elysian Fields" of myth - it's estimated to have as much water as the North Sea. Luna is a great place to develop better tele-op systems, but the technology will probably see it's greatest use on the Red Planet as a leverage for valuable human labor.<br /><br />Lunar craters are an incredibly challenging environment to operate in with people or robots, even if there is water. The evidence is for hydrogen and the assumption is water as ice. It could be hydrous minerals or rocks, something like concrete. It's worth investigating, but it's not guaranteed to be water ice.<br /><br />I'm not sure if Earth's Moon can be developed without Mars resources. I know that sounds backwards, but there are a lot of simpler ways to access a wider variety of resources on Mars (esp. volatiles) that the Moon simply doesn't possess. The Moon is an ideal vacation spot and source of metals, silica and slag, but will never support a civilization without incoming resources. <br /><br />If you push tele-robotics far enough, you'll end up with a robot "ecology" on the Moon. We can make Mars Bloom and the Moon Compute. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[rpmath]

<font color="yellow">A manned moon base is not a profitable project, not with current tech. But a robotic one...perhabs<br /></font><br />Imagine a probe landing in the moon: <br />- It has a link to Earth and a local RF network.<br />- Some small robots with their RF link.<br />- Spare parts for a robot factory and more robots.<br /><br />The first robots build the factory with the spare parts and local resources.<br />The first robots use the factory to build more robots with local resources and the spare parts that cannot be built there.<br /><br />Then the robots start improving the factory to create more native parts to use instead of the expensive earth imported parts.<br /><br />The robots dont need AI, they are just remote controlled from earth.<br /><br />You can start building more links to Earth, and diferent structures. Something can be sold to Earth people.<br /><br />Who will want something on the moon if he cannot go there to use it?<br /><br />People buy things in "Seccond Life" and they are not even real, why not in the moon?<br />you can use them via internet too but "they are real".<br /><br />Somebody can use the robots to build something usefull, or just something funny or original to show his friends.<br />

 

[kelvinzero]

I would really like to see something like that take off.<br /><br />Obviously if you have self reproducing factories, launch costs are practically irrelevant. A hundred ton investment might give you a trillion tons of industry.<br /><br />It is very frustrating that while there are endless sites and papers claiming that generating materials from regolith is viable, I hear very little of people actually building anything intended to demonstrate this. The last mention I remember is that oxygen from regolith competition.<br /><br />I would like to hear about dozens of companies actually building smelting machinery and running them in simulated moon environments.