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The Catch-22 of new engineers

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Crossover_Maniac

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The only thing they don't and can't teach you in college is experience.&nbsp; It's a problem that I and millions of other engineers face.&nbsp; We can't get our foot in the door because we can't the job without experience and we can't get experience with the job.&nbsp; It's especially bad with student loans running into the tens of thousands for those of us that didn't get scholarships.&nbsp; Does anyone here know how to get around this horse and pony BS show?&nbsp; Or just tell us your opinion about it and get your frustration off your chest.&nbsp; Post at your hearts' content. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Feel the Hope-nosis </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The only thing they don't and can't teach you in college is experience.&nbsp; It's a problem that I and millions of other engineers face.&nbsp; We can't get our foot in the door because we can't the job without experience and we can't get experience with the job.&nbsp; It's especially bad with student loans running into the tens of thousands for those of us that didn't get scholarships.&nbsp; Does anyone here know how to get around this horse and pony BS show?&nbsp; Or just tell us your opinion about it and get your frustration off your chest.&nbsp; Post at your hearts' content. <br />Posted by Crossover_Maniac</DIV></p><p>I have never noticed a real reluctance to hire new graduates.&nbsp; They start in entry-level jobs and once they have proved themselves a bit are given more responsibility.&nbsp; I suppose that the situation is a bit different in smaller companies that do not have an engineering force quite large enough to tolerate, teach, and benefit from newbies.&nbsp; But in an engineering organization with lots of responsibilities and at least a couple of hundred people, new graduates are an asset and are sought out.</p><p>Have you tried the medium and large size aerospace companies ?<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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Crossover_Maniac

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Tried both big and small and so far I haven't gotten anywhere with them.&nbsp; I even let them know that I would be willing to relocate at my expense. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Feel the Hope-nosis </div>
 
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BrianSlee

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The only thing they don't and can't teach you in college is experience.&nbsp; It's a problem that I and millions of other engineers face.&nbsp; We can't get our foot in the door because we can't the job without experience and we can't get experience with the job.&nbsp; It's especially bad with student loans running into the tens of thousands for those of us that didn't get scholarships.&nbsp; Does anyone here know how to get around this horse and pony BS show?&nbsp; Or just tell us your opinion about it and get your frustration off your chest.&nbsp; Post at your hearts' content. <br />Posted by Crossover_Maniac</DIV><br /><br />I would recommend the military as a good option for any young graduate looking to gain experience in development of advanced technology applications.&nbsp; IMHO no one is more willing to give young professionals a chance to be involved with significant efforts at levels that really matter.&nbsp; I know it is not for everyone but if you really want to get in the game while you are young that is one of the best places to do it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>"I am therefore I think" </p><p>"The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee</p> </div>
 
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danhezee

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I would recommend the military as a good option for any young graduate looking to gain experience in development of advanced technology applications.&nbsp; IMHO no one is more willing to give young professionals a chance to be involved with significant efforts at levels that really matter.&nbsp; I know it is not for everyone but if you really want to get in the game while you are young that is one of the best places to do it. <br /> Posted by BrianSlee</DIV></p><p><font size="2">That is the route I am going. I graduated in May with a computer science degree.&nbsp; I looked for a little bit in the private sector, But the Navy has Information Warfare Officers and the Air Force has the Cyber Commander.&nbsp; After 4 years of being an Information Warfare Officer, I imagine that banks, the government, or any company that has confidential information would want to hire me. </font><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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BrianSlee

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That is the route I am going. I graduated in May with a computer science degree.&nbsp; I looked for a little bit in the private sector, But the Navy has Information Warfare Officers and the Air Force has the Cyber Commander.&nbsp; After 4 years of being an Information Warfare Officer, I imagine that banks, the government, or any company that has confidential information would want to hire me. &nbsp; <br />Posted by danhezee</DIV><br /><br />Absolutely,&nbsp; Military experience is seen as a major plus for employers. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>"I am therefore I think" </p><p>"The only thing "I HAVE TO DO!!" is die, in everything else I have freewill" Brian P. Slee</p> </div>
 
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Carrickagh

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<p>Catch-22!</p><p>I understand your frustration and even pain. Many newbie or recent grads experience this. Typically it is due to the hiring function within companies big and small. An engineering manager or human resources person must, in making a hiring decision, provide good earned value to the company. Earned value is a euphemism for return on investment or bang for your buck. Managers like to bring people in as a response to an immedate need on a program or as a response to an impending need such as a recently landed contract that will require support. A hiring manager likes to recruit people who can immediately provide good earned value and productive work. Increasingly they are reluctant to hire in newbies who don't have experience because they would have to train or mentor you. Contrary to popular myth and corporate propaganda aside, they don't really want to do that. It would not provide good value.</p><p>This is not meant to discourage you because your degree is valuable and your fortitude, commitment, and intelligence to enter a very tough field is to be commended. Indeed, not everyone chases engineering and you have to be tenacious. This already says a great deal about you and is of value whether you hold a degree or not. </p><p>Well, a few courses I might suggest:</p><p>1. If you are still in school look into a co-op program or internship. Colleges such as Norheastern in Boston http://www.northeastern.edu/neuhome/index.php&nbsp;and RIT in Rochester www.rit.edu have programs built around co-op. It takes 5 years, but students gain solid work experience while off-setting tuition.</p><p>2. Consult faculty or staff. </p><p>It is hard to get into large companies, even if you are diligently filing away on-line applications and resumes, etc. Many companies, such as Boeing, work via intersocial networking. Intersocial networking is a euphemism for "Dad or Aunt Jane got me the job." So in Seattle you typically encounter a disproportionate number of Boeing engineers who grew up in Wichita where either mom or dad worked at the Boeing B52 plant. It's just a comfort thing on the part of the people hiring and is not to be fully critiqued. Those Boeing engineers&nbsp;have a leg up and get good jobs and do good work. You or I might do the same for our kid.</p><p>Also, companies tend to have a set quota of new grads they will "intake" in a given year. Many companies hire regionally. By this I mean if MegaCorp Aerospace Division in say, Huntsville, is hiring this spring they will typically look no further than UA-Huntsville. Again, its a comfort thing. Those hiring managers have had success with that practice in the past, are comfortable with local people, and it provides good earned value.</p><p>If you can talk to the faculty and staff at your school. Give them your resume. They may have connections at XYZ Division where you want to work. They may serve as consultants or even work there themselves. <strong>Also ask them for a reference.</strong></p><p><strong>3. Also, does your college host job fairs?</strong> These are good sources for employment and actually going face-to-face with an employers representative.</p><p><strong>4. Are there professional societies that you could network with? </strong>These could be student chapters like AIAA, ASME, or AIChE. Also, some cities have enginnering societies that host all engineers, not just one discipline. They are typically quite welcoming to new grads. Here's an example from Rochester, NY: http://www.roceng.org/</p><p>5. Work with a faculty member or staff person on some project. This could help your resume.</p><p>6. Consider working as a technical temp. Agencies such as Kelly Technical www.kellyservices.com and Burns Personnel www.burnspersonnel.com&nbsp;frequently hire newbies for seemeingly menial tasks, but that could provide experience. Also, some companies will bring in a proven and qualified temp worker into their fold before advertizing for a new employee. Also, try www.monster.com for employment listings. Remember, a solid and consistent work record (ie time on the job) plus a degree from a local college can mean more to a potential employer than a degree from a famous university.</p><p>7. If you are considering the military and are still in school consider ROTC. They would provide a scholarship to offset tuition. If you have already graduated and want to enlist, please remember that you can defer student loans, but the military will not pay them off. The military option is good to get experience. They will also pay tuition if you are able to continue in say graduate school.</p><p>8. If you are interested in aerospace as a career, where are the contracts going? Sure NASA is building Project Cancellation, er, Constellation, but who is actually bending the tin? A good source for aerospace news big and small is Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/&nbsp;If you can't afford the mag's subscription rate go to your school's engineering library. They will likely have it. It follows business trends in the industry. You could target your resume to whatever company has new work and is hiring.</p><p>9. What are your personal interests? Could this be turned into a business? A degree plus a solid business plan could help secure a small business loan or investors. Many commumity colleges offer free seminars for business plan building. Look into that.</p><p>10. Also, remember, the engineering degree does not define you. You do not need to be an engineer. Many engineering graduates go on to teach, or study other fields.&nbsp;Engineers can do other things and find good job satisfaction.</p><p>Also, on any job hunt keep your filters up. Many companies will bring engineers in, especially new engineers, with a lot of proselytizing. Many new engineers are then dismayed to find themselves in a place with a lack of teamwork or find themselves trapped as paper pushers, never touching hardware or working on a project that interests them. Also, many companies no longer provide engineers the professional benefits they once did. Companies no longer provide tuition assistance without the engineer having to prove and justify it as securing good earned value. Also, companies don't always provide the training, mentoring, or even support an engineer's membership in professional societies or attendance at professional conferences. Also, training these days comes down to: "Here's the manual. Now you're the expert!" This has been the trend since the late 80's. Be sure you know what you are getting into.</p><p>Also, big companies are not always better. A small company could give you a lot more experience as well as responsibility. That would be good in that small company or if you wish to go on to the bigger outfits.</p><p>Good luck with your job search!</p><p><br /><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/8/9fccb84a-992d-4d29-a803-e2968b5c1cd8.Medium.jpg" alt="" /><br />a new engineer on the job</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p>Also, don't take job advertisements too literally.&nbsp; Here is one for an entry-level Engineer 1.</p><p>http://www.engcen.com/JobAdSimply.asp?JobID=28664</p><p>If one reads this as it stands it would seem to require quite a bit of expertise and experience.&nbsp; However, an E-1 is definitely an entry-level job for a recent graduate.&nbsp; I doubt anyone who met all of the requirements stated in the ad would actually hire on as an E-1.&nbsp; In fact, it looks to me like an E-3 job or hire as described.&nbsp; And I am fairly familiar with the technical job descriptions for this outfit. </p><p>There is an advantage in getting a first job with a medium-to-large engineering organization,&nbsp; That is that a larger organization does not have the immediate pressure for a new hire to be contributing substantially to the bottom line from day 1.&nbsp; Therefore they can hire someone who has some learning to do and provide a bit of guidance.&nbsp; In such an organization you can still gain responsibility quickly once you get the lay of the land and have proven yourself a bit.&nbsp; It is also true that once you have a bit of experience you may gain responsibility more quickly in a smaller organization, but I think the concern in this thread is getting that first job.&nbsp; </p><p>The advice to look at internships and summer jobs is good advice.&nbsp; If you do a good job you will have an inside track at places that know you.&nbsp; And interns and summer hires often receive more attention and training than do permanent employees on a per-hour-worked basis.&nbsp; This is because companies are in a&nbsp; prosletyzing and hiring mode with interns and summer hires.</p><p>Also the advice that companies often do not provide financial support or time off for participation in technical societies is good advice.&nbsp; That sort of support is quite uncommon these days.&nbsp; As I recall from just prior to when I retired the company payed for a very limited number of AIAA memberships and they all went to very senior people in management.&nbsp; No importance was placed on professional society memberships -- did not come up in promotion decisions at any level.&nbsp; What counted was what you had done for the company, period.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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annodomini2

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<p>The real issue with this is that it is also significantly affected by the global market.</p><p>&nbsp;Especially in the current climate where we are in a Global Downturn, I saw the same at the dot-com bust, most technology companies didn't even bother hiring graduates as there was such&nbsp;an influx from the collapsing companies.</p><p>&nbsp;In the UK engineering degrees are now all MEng, requiring a 6month secondment to a company to get you that little bit of experience.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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vulture4

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The real issue with this is that it is also significantly affected by the global market.&nbsp;Especially in the current climate where we are in a Global Downturn, I saw the same at the dot-com bust, most technology companies didn't even bother hiring graduates as there was such&nbsp;an influx from the collapsing companies.&nbsp;In the UK engineering degrees are now all MEng, requiring a 6month secondment to a company to get you that little bit of experience. <br /> Posted by annodomini2</DIV></p><p>I had similar problems when i graduated. I decided to stay in school an extra year until the job marketimproved. Eventually i stated an Army-sponsored civilian graduate program; I figued there'd proably always be war. But then I wanted even more job security, so I managed to get into medical school. Ideally anyone wanting to become an engineer should _always_ try to get into a co-op or internship program while an undergraduate, and make sure you don't actually graduate until you have a job offer!. The market will always be uncertain because manufacturers may complain there aren't enough US trained engineers, but some really want to hire foriegn graduates who will ork for less or simply outsource to foriegn countries. Work on volunteer projects, attend conferences in engineering , and hand out business cards, You have to be prepared to consider all the alternatives, from graduate school to starting our own business or joinng the Peace Corps or teaching high school. </p>
 
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KosmicHero

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I had similar problems when i graduated. I decided to stay in school an extra year until the job marketimproved. Eventually i stated an Army-sponsored civilian graduate program; I figued there'd proably always be war. But then I wanted even more job security, so I managed to get into medical school. Ideally anyone wanting to become an engineer should _always_ try to get into a co-op or internship program while an undergraduate, and make sure you don't actually graduate until you have a job offer!. The market will always be uncertain because manufacturers may complain there aren't enough US trained engineers, but some really want to hire foriegn graduates who will ork for less or simply outsource to foriegn countries. Work on volunteer projects, attend conferences in engineering , and hand out business cards, You have to be prepared to consider all the alternatives, from graduate school to starting our own business or joinng the Peace Corps or teaching high school. <br />Posted by vulture4</DIV><br /><br />They also can't outsource national security jobs (at least not yet).&nbsp; All jobs requiring a security clearance must be held by US citizens.&nbsp; <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> kosmichero.wordpress.com </div>
 
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