The concept and structure of matter (the material world)

[Ignat]

The Matter is a philosophical category for the designation of objective reality that exists independently of human consciousness, including everything that is accessible to a person with the help of sensory organs, devices and instruments, thinking, as well as everything that is not available to a person at present, but may become available in the future, and everything that will never become available to a person (full cognition of the infinite material world is impossible).
The attributes of matter, the forms of its being are space and motion, and they do not exist outside of matter. Similarly, there can be no material objects that do not have these properties.
The universal properties of matter are:
1. uncreateability and indestructibility;
2. the eternity of existence in time and infinity in space;
3. the matter is always inherent by movement and change, self-development, transformation of some states into others;
4. the determinacy of all phenomena;
5. uniqueness.
Let's take a closer look at each of the properties.
The uncreateability and indestructibility of matter means that the objective world is self-sufficient, i.e. no additional forces are needed for its existence. No one has created matter and no one can destroy matter.
The eternity of existence in time and infinity in space means that matter has always been and will always be, that matter has no beginning and no end.
Matter is always characterized by movement and change, self-development, transformation of some states into others. By movement I mean not only mechanical movement in space, but also physical and chemical transformations, biological processes, etc. The transition of matter from one form of existence to another (substance-field) is also a movement.
Determinism (causality) is the dependence of phenomena and objects on structural connections in material systems and external influences, on the causes and conditions that generate them. Nothing in the material world happens just like that, by accident. Everything is subject to certain laws and what follows develops from the previous one.
The uniqueness of matter means that there are no two identical objects in the objective world. Any material object is individual, whether it is an atom or the universe. In other words, in the material world, it is impossible for one object to exist at different points in the universe.
The paradox of infinite matter: Matter is a system of systems. There is no place for randomness in the material world. Any event can be predicted if all the processes contributing to the occurrence of this event are taken into account. But it is impossible to take into account countless processes, therefore, it is possible to predict an event only with a certain degree of probability.

 

[billslugg]

"There is no place for randomness in the material world. "
Heisenberg disproved this.

 

[promytius]

An interesting perspective. I do see some points to go over; you say the material world is infinite; sources?
There is an obvious lack of covering the other half of all - energy.
Your deterministic position does not talk about quantum mechanics very much, and nothing of quantum uncertainty and randomness at the smallest scales.
You do not address the fact that matter is always effected by external forces, and the role they play in affecting matter. Matter is constantly interacting with other matter and forces. Gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces all influence the behavior of matter.
When I consider Black Holes, I don't see your description of matter holding up to the unique concentration of energy and matter.
If matter was/is constant, how does the widely accepted theory of the Big Bang fit into your explanations? Eternity of Existence: While matter has existed for a very long time, our current understanding of the universe's origin (the Big Bang) suggests a beginning. However, it can be true that the matter and energy that existed then are still present today, albeit in different forms.
The statement about matter's self-sufficiency is more of a philosophical and theoretical concept, emphasizing the intrinsic nature of matter. It recognizes that matter has properties and behaviors that are inherent to its existence, regardless of external influences.
However, in practical terms, it's impossible to ignore the impact of external forces. These forces constantly shape the universe, causing matter to move, change, and interact in countless ways.
So, while the core nature of matter is self-sufficient, its behavior and evolution are deeply intertwined with the external forces that act upon it.
An interesting read, as it has created several points of consideration.

 

[Atlan0001]

"There is no place for randomness in the material world. "
Heisenberg disproved this.

Albert Einstein: "God does not play dice with the universe!"
Stephen Hawking, decades later: "Yes, God does play dice with the universe but they are loaded!"

 

[promytius]

"Well, at least we know who's rigging the game! Time to start studying the cosmic rulebook."

 

[Ignat]

"There is no place for randomness in the material world. "
Heisenberg disproved this.

I'm sorry, but obviously you haven't read to the end. I explained what randomness is.

 

[Ignat]

You do not address the fact that matter is always effected by external forces, and the role they play in affecting matter.

Thanks for the detailed answer, but I'm not talking about the substance, but about the material world. At the very beginning of the post, I define Matter as a material world that includes everything. There are no external forces acting on Matter. The quantum world is a part of Matter. I have defined Matter from the point of view of materialism. Of course, there are also idealistic ideas about the world around us.

 

[promytius]

"I'm not talking about the substance, but about the material world."
I fail to see your distinction. You seem to have a "philosophic" point of view, whereas for me, if substance isn't material, then how do you distinguish one from the other?
"There are no external forces acting on Matter."
I see no way to logically parse that, as I live in a universe, where external forces are everywhere acting on everything, you know, things like gravity, electromagnetic energy, light; that kind of stuff.
It just doesn't fit into any logic that I understand; you've lost me; of course there are external forces, that's science.

 

[billslugg]

I'm sorry, but obviously you haven't read to the end. I explained what randomness is.

Personal insults will not prove a point. I have nothing to do with people who use them in arguments. Have a nice day.

 

[mdswartz]

Matter is about about space in that all of the most elementary particles and forces remain the same, only how they interact with space changes. The elementary particles and their quantum spin might otherwise spin off into space, but the strong force captures and holds onto a space to allow the elementary particles to have their quantum spin in an enclosed space. Neutrons consist of a confined space such as this, held firm by the strong force. The space inside becomes an integral part of matter. When a part of the weak force pushes out to operate outside of matter as electromagnetism and electromagnetic fields (beta decay), protons and electrons and antineutrinos result, which under the right conditions, can result in the capture and holding of even more space in the form of electron orbits and atomic matter, mostly the most simple atoms of all at first, hydrogen. Again, that additional space captured becomes an integral part of matter. Atoms can then combine into molecules, capturing and holding even more space, followed by evolution of ever grander structures in space.

While the nuclear forces work to hold matter together from the inside, gravity works to pull matter together from the outside. These dynamics allow objects composed of matter to get bigger and bigger, capturing and holding on to more and more space, seemingly forever at first. But in an ordered universe, objects can't endlessly get bigger forever, so it becomes essential to have a mechanism to break it all down again. That's why in the case of regular atomic matter, gravity can incrementally gain an edge as the mass of objects grows, until finally, at roughly 1.4 solar masses (net mass), gravity overcomes the weak force's ability to maintain electron orbits, resulting in the relinquishing of space in collapse to neutron star via electron capture. Then again, at roughly 2.3 solar masses, gravity overcomes the strong force's ability to hold onto the enclosed space for the elementary particles' quantum spin, and the space is relinquished, and the matter is removed from space, resulting in collapse to black hole.

Once again, all of the elementary particles and forces that are sent down to the center, where there is no space, are exactly the same as they were before, the only difference is that the space has been relinquished. And the mechanism was that gravity gained an incremental edge as more and more matter was added to the original object. The elementary particles and forces inside the black hole are exactly the same, identical, to what we might call the early universe particles, the particles and forces that were present right after our own big bang, before the formation of atomic matter. In fact, the only place in the entire universe where elementary particles and forces like these can be safely accumulated and stored outside of space is within a black hole. If you had the desire and ability to launch a big bang of early universe particles yourself, and you went out searching for a source of particles and forces to begin your preparations, the only place you could find them would be inside of black holes. And those particles and forces are capable of re-forming back into regular atomic matter again, if only they had access to open spaces again. But the black hole, which is essentially a space limiter with a purpose of safely storing and accumulating the elementary particles and forces (primordial matter), does it's job perfectly.

This is where I agree with the original poster regarding infinite and eternal universe. Black holes remove matter from space, making the resultant object smaller and smaller, seemingly forever at first, but in an ordered universe, objects can't get smaller and smaller forever, so it becomes essential to have a mechanism to replace the elementary particles and forces back into open space so that the process of a renewed capture of space in the reformation of matter in space can occur. That mechanism is the overcoming of gravity in a big bang explosion of a black hole into the open spaces of the infinite and eternal universe, once it reaches the relevant mass limit, which we can guess from our own big bang is roughly one big bang of mass.

The obvious problem with this idea is that our math says escape from a black hole is impossible, so how can it happen? But once you realize that it must happen, as part of an ordered, infinite and eternal universe, you simply start searching for ways it might happen. You can only guess, because the internal workings of black holes are fully hidden. I'm making a guess based on the only difference I can see between regular matter and black holes, where all the elementary forces and particles are the same, and only their arrangement in or out of space is different. That difference is that with regular matter, the weak force works both inside and outside of matter as a nuclear force and electromagnetism and electromagnetic fields, whereas in a black hole the weak force has been pushed into entirely inside of matter to work only from the inside. My guess, based on this observation, is that similar to gravity gaining an incremental edge as regular matter is added to regular matter, in a black hole, with the weak force operating entirely from the inside, the combined strong and weak force gain an incremental edge over gravity as matter is added to the black hole, right up to cosmic mass limit #3, roughly one big bang of mass, when the strong and weak force overcome gravity in a big bang explosion. Just like gravity failed in our early section of the universe to hold the early universe particles together in a black hole, because they were too full of heat content and kinetic energy to be bound by any attractive force, even gravity, in the explosion of a black hole at cosmic mass limit #3, gravity again fails to hold, and the particles inside are expelled outside, are full of heat content and kinetic energy, and they become early universe particles just like our own early universe particles, permanently freed from the original center of gravity.

 

[Atlan0001]

"Well, at least we know who's rigging the game! Time to start studying the cosmic rulebook."

Not who, what! The fundamental 'Life Force'!

My own turn on Stephen Hawking's response to Einstein decades later:
Atlan0001: But the 'Life Force' in and of the universe does play dice with the universe, only the die are loaded (the game is rigged by and through a 'creative' positive order of energy and entropy, the most fundamental of all fundamental forces, the 'Life Force' . . . deliberately unrecognized as a force -- fundamental or otherwise -- by most physicists, excepting some cosmological meta-physicist types like me).

 

[Ignat]

Personal insults will not prove a point. I have nothing to do with people who use them in arguments. Have a nice day.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you! I just wanted to draw your attention to how I explain randomness.

 

[billslugg]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you! I just wanted to draw your attention to how I explain randomness.

Thank you for the apology. Have a nice day.

 

[Ignat]

You seem to have a "philosophic" point of view, whereas for me, if substance isn't material, then how do you distinguish one from the other?

There cannot be anything immaterial in the material world. Thoughts are also a product of the activity of the material brain.

I see no way to logically parse that, as I live in a universe, where external forces are everywhere acting on everything, you know, things like gravity, electromagnetic energy, light; that kind of stuff.

Our universe is a small part of infinite matter (the material world). Of course, there are external forces in relation to the universe, but there are no such forces for matter. I wrote that from a materialistic point of view, Matter is eternal and infinite. To date, the infinity of matter is confirmed by studies of space and the quantum world. Scientists have not yet managed to find the end of matter.

 

[Atlan0001]

I, for one, can distinguish the expansive immaterialism of the infinite mind from the the various material limits, contractive, of the finite brain. Depending upon the person, and whether the environmental vastness of a frontier is at hand, or at least the idea of one, such as America or the Maritime once upon a time, or a new and vastly greater maritime SPACE now, the latter can tract well to the former.

 

[whoknows]

Thanks for the detailed answer, but I'm not talking about the substance, but about the material world. At the very beginning of the post, I define Matter as a material world that includes everything. There are no external forces acting on Matter. The quantum world is a part of Matter. I have defined Matter from the point of view of materialism. Of course, there are also idealistic ideas about the world around us.

Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, begs to differ.

re your #14
"There cannot be anything immaterial in the material world. Thoughts are also a product of the activity of the material brain."

More likely that matter exists within the realm of Energy, - materialism within immaterialism imo.

 

[mdswartz]

Regarding external forces acting on matter, when your understanding is that the 4 forces only exist in connection with an amount of matter, and are forever inseparable from matter and are therefore a part of matter, and that energy is interchangeable with and is a part of matter, and that things like gravitational waves have no way of occurring without matter, it makes a little more sense when someone says there are no external forces acting on matter. Yes, things like gravity, electromagnetic fields and gravitational waves do operate outside of matter, but since they're a part of matter you could argue they're not external forces

 

[whoknows]

Not who, what! The fundamental 'Life Force'!

My own turn on Stephen Hawking's response to Einstein decades later:
Atlan0001: But the 'Life Force' in and of the universe does play dice with the universe, only the die are loaded (the game is rigged by and through a 'creative' positive order of energy and entropy, the most fundamental of all fundamental forces, the 'Life Force' . . . deliberately unrecognized as a force -- fundamental or otherwise -- by most physicists, excepting some cosmological meta-physicist types like me).

I'm more, or less, with you on this. How do you envisage this "Life Force" being/arising?

 

[Classical Motion]

What does an electron look like? In what manner does it spin? Why does it spin?

Who knows anything about matter?

 

[Classical Motion]

The Greeks started this spitball in 8000 BC. And we're still spitballing.

 

[Classical Motion]

An undetermined value, for me, does not equate into a random value.

 

[Gibsense]

If you extend the meaning of 'matter' to mean 'everything' (including space vacuum itself (virtual particles) then the argument is close to trivial at least but more like semantic only or worse

 

[Catastrophe]

The map is not the territory.

Cat