The concept of superposition

[Ignat]

Materialism asserts that the material world is an objective reality that exists independently of consciousness. In classical physics, this view dominates: objects and processes exist independently of the observer, and their states can be determined objectively.

Quantum mechanics introduces concepts that can be interpreted as idealistic, especially in the context of the Copenhagen interpretation. An example is the concept of superposition.

In quantum mechanics, particles can be in a superposition of states until a measurement is performed. This phenomenon is observed at the level of atoms and subatomic particles. It means that the system does not have a defined state before the measurement.

The Copenhagen interpretation, in fact, asserts that the material world does not exist until a person makes a measurement. Quantum physics has now become a preacher of subjective idealism.

Subjective idealism is a philosophical position that asserts that reality exists only in the individual's mind. According to this point of view, the external world has no objective existence regardless of its perception and awareness by the subject. The main ideas of subjective idealism can be summarized in the following points:

Subjectivity of reality: Reality is subjective and depends on the perception and awareness of the individual. The external world has no objective existence independent of consciousness.

Consciousness as the foundation: Consciousness is the fundamental foundation of all existence. Everything that we perceive as reality is a product of our consciousness.

Absence of an objective world: There is no objective material world independent of consciousness. Everything that we perceive as the outside world is a construct of our consciousness.

I would like to ask experts in quantum physics, what happened before the creation of man?

 

[Classical Motion]

When you twist a mathematical line, you get the same line. No change.

When you twist a physical line, it shrinks and gives a new relative length. PLUS the line gains area and density.

Superposition is like this. There is math superposition and physical superposition.

One we understand and one we don't.

 

[Gibsense]

The Copenhagen interpretation, in fact, asserts that the material world does not exist until a person makes a measurement. Quantum physics has now become a preacher of subjective idealism.

Superposition is when a quantum system exists in multiple states at once. When you measure or observe the system, it "collapses" into one of those possible states, and that's what you end up seeing. The act of measurement forces the system to make a choice, so to speak. Before you measure it, it's like all the possibilities are in play at the same time. Once you measure, it's like the universe decides which one is the reality you'll observe.

You use some tool or other to make the observation. It is the act of applying the tool that causes the collapse and a person is not needed. That collapse process is happening all the time, everywhere. Anytime a quantum system interacts with something else or gets observed, it picks a state. Since the universe is full of interactions—particles bumping into each other, photons hitting stuff, and all kinds of measurements happening—it’s like a nonstop show of possibilities becoming a reality.

I view this as a timewave/process washing over a landscape of quantum possibilities causing the universe to collapse into a reality. Of course, this is not much help and I am definitely no expert. It does though suggest that the future leaves a number of choices indicating we are not 'fated' and in a way the choices available suggest that the future influences the present. It depends how you choose to look at it (pun intended)

 

[Ignat]

Superposition is when a quantum system exists in multiple states at once. When you measure or observe the system, it "collapses" into one of those possible states, and that's what you end up seeing. The act of measurement forces the system to make a choice, so to speak. Before you measure it, it's like all the possibilities are in play at the same time. Once you measure, it's like the universe decides which one is the reality you'll observe.

There is a current loop without an ammeter. Is the current in a superposition: is there current, is there no current? If an ammeter is connected to the circuit, does the wave function collapse?

 

[Gibsense]

There is a current loop without an ammeter. Is the current in a superposition: is there current, is there no current? If an ammeter is connected to the circuit, does the wave function collapse?

Do you suggest there is superposition involved, if so why?

 

[Ignat]

Do you suggest there is superposition involved, if so why?

The principle of superposition is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics, according to which, if a quantum system to a valid state Ѱ1 and Ѱ2, then it is permissible and any linear combination Ѱ3 = с1Ѱ1 + с2Ѱ2; it is called a superposition of States Ѱ1и Ѱ2 (the principle of superposition of States). (Wikipedia)Ѱ1 - there is a current,Ѱ2 - there is no current

 

[Jim Franklin]

Materialism asserts that the material world is an objective reality that exists independently of consciousness. In classical physics, this view dominates: objects and processes exist independently of the observer, and their states can be determined objectively.

Quantum mechanics introduces concepts that can be interpreted as idealistic, especially in the context of the Copenhagen interpretation. An example is the concept of superposition.

In quantum mechanics, particles can be in a superposition of states until a measurement is performed. This phenomenon is observed at the level of atoms and subatomic particles. It means that the system does not have a defined state before the measurement.

The Copenhagen interpretation, in fact, asserts that the material world does not exist until a person makes a measurement. Quantum physics has now become a preacher of subjective idealism.

Subjective idealism is a philosophical position that asserts that reality exists only in the individual's mind. According to this point of view, the external world has no objective existence regardless of its perception and awareness by the subject. The main ideas of subjective idealism can be summarized in the following points:

Subjectivity of reality: Reality is subjective and depends on the perception and awareness of the individual. The external world has no objective existence independent of consciousness.

Consciousness as the foundation: Consciousness is the fundamental foundation of all existence. Everything that we perceive as reality is a product of our consciousness.

Absence of an objective world: There is no objective material world independent of consciousness. Everything that we perceive as the outside world is a construct of our consciousness.

I would like to ask experts in quantum physics, what happened before the creation of man?

Your post contains several philosophical and scientific misunderstandings about quantum mechanics and its implications. Let’s break it down systematically. You will have a mark at the end as if this was a Course Question.

1. Materialism and Classical Physics:
   Materialism does assert the independent existence of the material world, and classical physics operates under this assumption. However, quantum mechanics does not outright refute materialism; rather, it introduces complexities in how we understand the interaction between observers and the physical world. The idea that quantum mechanics promotes idealism is a misinterpretation of its principles.
2. Quantum Mechanics and Superposition:
   • In quantum mechanics, superposition describes a system existing in multiple states simultaneously until measured. This doesn’t mean the system "does not exist" before measurement; rather, its properties (like position or momentum) are not well-defined in classical terms.
   • Measurement in quantum mechanics doesn’t require a human observer; any interaction with the environment (a phenomenon called decoherence) effectively "collapses" the superposition. For example, particles interacting with other particles or fields in their environment can cause a collapse, independent of any conscious being.
3. Copenhagen Interpretation Misrepresentation:
   • The Copenhagen interpretation does not claim the material world ceases to exist without observation. Instead, it suggests that certain properties of quantum systems (like position or momentum) are not determined until measured. This interpretation is one of many, and none imply that reality depends solely on human consciousness. Such a nonsense concept would mean that the Universe would cease to exist if humans became extinct - clearly a preposterous position to hold.
   • A common misconception is that quantum mechanics supports "subjective idealism" or the notion that reality is purely a construct of the mind. This misrepresents the interpretation, which deals with the probabilistic nature of measurements, not the existence of reality itself.
4. Subjective Idealism and Quantum Mechanics:
   • Quantum mechanics does not advocate for subjective idealism. It describes the probabilistic behavior of particles and the mathematical framework to predict outcomes of measurements, but it does not address metaphysical claims about reality’s dependence on consciousness.
   • The idea that "reality exists only in the individual's mind" is a philosophical stance, not a scientific one. Physics provides models to describe and predict observable phenomena, not to dictate how reality should be philosophically interpreted.
5. What Happened Before Humans?
   The universe existed long before humans came into the picture, as evidenced by the cosmic microwave background radiation, the fossil record, and geological data. Quantum phenomena, like superposition or wavefunction collapse, were governed by the same physical laws billions of years before conscious observers emerged. The idea that reality needed human consciousness to exist conflates philosophical idealism with scientific evidence.

This post appears to conflate philosophical speculation with quantum mechanics, leading to conclusions unsupported by science. While quantum mechanics challenges our classical intuitions, it does not negate the existence of an objective reality. Measurements do not require human consciousness—they can involve any interaction between a quantum system and its environment.

If you're genuinely curious about these topics, I encourage you to explore resources on quantum decoherence and interpretations of quantum mechanics by credible physicists. It’s a fascinating field but often misunderstood due to oversimplified or sensationalised interpretations. D-

 

[Ignat]

Your post contains several philosophical and scientific misunderstandings about quantum mechanics and its implications. Let’s break it down systematically. You will have a mark at the end as if this was a Course Question.

1. Materialism and Classical Physics:
   Materialism does assert the independent existence of the material world, and classical physics operates under this assumption. However, quantum mechanics does not outright refute materialism; rather, it introduces complexities in how we understand the interaction between observers and the physical world. The idea that quantum mechanics promotes idealism is a misinterpretation of its principles.
2. Quantum Mechanics and Superposition:
   • In quantum mechanics, superposition describes a system existing in multiple states simultaneously until measured. This doesn’t mean the system "does not exist" before measurement; rather, its properties (like position or momentum) are not well-defined in classical terms.
   • Measurement in quantum mechanics doesn’t require a human observer; any interaction with the environment (a phenomenon called decoherence) effectively "collapses" the superposition. For example, particles interacting with other particles or fields in their environment can cause a collapse, independent of any conscious being.
3. Copenhagen Interpretation Misrepresentation:
   • The Copenhagen interpretation does not claim the material world ceases to exist without observation. Instead, it suggests that certain properties of quantum systems (like position or momentum) are not determined until measured. This interpretation is one of many, and none imply that reality depends solely on human consciousness. Such a nonsense concept would mean that the Universe would cease to exist if humans became extinct - clearly a preposterous position to hold.
   • A common misconception is that quantum mechanics supports "subjective idealism" or the notion that reality is purely a construct of the mind. This misrepresents the interpretation, which deals with the probabilistic nature of measurements, not the existence of reality itself.
4. Subjective Idealism and Quantum Mechanics:
   • Quantum mechanics does not advocate for subjective idealism. It describes the probabilistic behavior of particles and the mathematical framework to predict outcomes of measurements, but it does not address metaphysical claims about reality’s dependence on consciousness.
   • The idea that "reality exists only in the individual's mind" is a philosophical stance, not a scientific one. Physics provides models to describe and predict observable phenomena, not to dictate how reality should be philosophically interpreted.
5. What Happened Before Humans?
   The universe existed long before humans came into the picture, as evidenced by the cosmic microwave background radiation, the fossil record, and geological data. Quantum phenomena, like superposition or wavefunction collapse, were governed by the same physical laws billions of years before conscious observers emerged. The idea that reality needed human consciousness to exist conflates philosophical idealism with scientific evidence.

This post appears to conflate philosophical speculation with quantum mechanics, leading to conclusions unsupported by science. While quantum mechanics challenges our classical intuitions, it does not negate the existence of an objective reality. Measurements do not require human consciousness—they can involve any interaction between a quantum system and its environment.

If you're genuinely curious about these topics, I encourage you to explore resources on quantum decoherence and interpretations of quantum mechanics by credible physicists. It’s a fascinating field but often misunderstood due to oversimplified or sensationalised interpretations. D-

Are you saying that she refutes materialism indirectly? The principle of superposition, which you write about below, is a direct refutation of materialism. In your opinion, Schrodinger's living and dead cat at the same time is not contrary to materialism? As for the Copenhagen interpretation, I advise you to get to know it better in order to understand its essence. We can consider your objections in detail, but I would not like to waste time on this, because you attribute to me what I did not say or did not understand what I was saying. About a dimension that doesn't require human consciousness: Measurement is a set of actions to determine the ratio of one (measured) quantity to another homogeneous quantity, accepted by all participants as a unit stored in a technical means (measuring instrument).

 

[Catastrophe]

Materialism asserts that the material world is an objective reality that exists independently of consciousness.

Is this just a semantic, silly waste of space, or am I missing something?

If there were no (conscious) observer, there would be no knowledge as to whether "it" existed to be observed. Hence, there would be no one to talk about "it", whether "it" was there or not, indeed, no one to know whether "it" was there or not. No one to care either way?

Is this sort of "philosophy" just needlessly vibrating air molecules, with no meaning beyond the kinetics of the gas laws?

Please enlighten me?

Cat

 

[Geoff Dann]

I would like to ask experts in quantum physics, what happened before the creation of man?

Pretty much exactly what happened after the creation of man, except with less wanton, pointless destruction.

 

[Geoff Dann]

Are you saying that she refutes materialism indirectly? The principle of superposition, which you write about below, is a direct refutation of materialism. In your opinion, Schrodinger's living and dead cat at the same time is not contrary to materialism? As for the Copenhagen interpretation, I advise you to get to know it better in order to understand its essence. We can consider your objections in detail, but I would not like to waste time on this, because you attribute to me what I did not say or did not understand what I was saying. About a dimension that doesn't require human consciousness: Measurement is a set of actions to determine the ratio of one (measured) quantity to another homogeneous quantity, accepted by all participants as a unit stored in a technical means (measuring instrument).

Superposition doesn't directly refute materialism, no.

And Schrodinger didn't believe in dead and alive cats either. He was pointing out that the Copenhagen Interpretation was wrong. His own philosophy implies that the consciousness of the cat would collapse the wave function, though he wanted people to figure this out for themselves (and not many have).

The real problem with idealism is that implies minds can exist without brains, which just doesn't fit known empirical data. We have no reason to think disembodied minds can exist.

Materialism cannot account for consciousness, but it does not follow that idealism is true (objective idealism or subjective idealism).

 

[Geoff Dann]

Is this just a semantic, silly waste of space, or am I missing something?

If there were no (conscious) observer, there would be no knowledge as to whether "it" existed to be observed. Hence, there would be no one to talk about "it", whether "it" was there or not, indeed, no one to know whether "it" was there or not. No one to care either way?

Is this sort of "philosophy" just needlessly vibrating air molecules, with no meaning beyond the kinetics of the gas laws?

Please enlighten me?

Cat

It is poor philosophy. Subjective idealism hasn't been taken seriously for a long time. Objective idealism is staging something of a comeback (see Bernardo Kastrup) but I don't think it is going to sustain a paradigm shift.

 

[Catastrophe]

Materialism asserts that the material world is an objective reality that exists independently of consciousness.

Is this sort of "philosophy" just needlessly vibrating air molecules, with no meaning beyond the kinetics of the gas laws?

Seems like the answer might be 'yes'.

Cat

 

[Ignat]

Materialism cannot account for consciousness

Materialism explains consciousness very well: consciousness is the work of the brain. I think this is an exhaustive explanation.

 

[Geoff Dann]

Materialism explains consciousness very well: consciousness is the work of the brain. I think this is an exhaustive explanation.

It is also total nonsense. You are just redefining the word "consciousness" to mean something nobody ever means when they use the word. It is the equivalent of redefining the word "evolution" to mean "God" and then claiming you've shown why we should believe God exists.

Is the statement "consciousness is the work of the brain" supposed to be

(a) a definition or
(b) a theory

?

If it is (a) then the definition is very obviously absurd. If it is (b) then where is the actual theory? Your statement is trying to be both, and therefore ends up being neither.

This is why the Hard Problem is hard.

 

[Classical Motion]

Many educated people believe that consciousness is just an electro-chemical process. Just an evolution of chemistry.

No meaning and no purpose to it. An environmental happenstance.

The denial of this obvious awareness being special is amazing. When compared to all the other life forms. And how out of place our bodies are.

And what’s the one thing we all seek?

A higher level of awareness. Whether thru study or drugs, or both.

That’s where all the questions come from.

We seek knowledge to fill our awareness hole.

Many think AI will help fill that hole. It might make that hole much deeper.

It will be interesting.

Just the want of it is guiding policy now.

 

[Gibsense]

The denial of this obvious awareness being special is amazing. When compared to all the other life forms. And how out of place our bodies are.

My old dog responded to commands given by my image in a mirror even. We communicated by hand signals as he became deaf. Many animals are aware, not just humans.

 

[Ignat]

If it is (a) then the definition is very obviously absurd.

The statement "consciousness is the work of the brain" is indeed a definition. And the theory has a place in brain physiology and psychology. Just because you're not familiar with them doesn't mean they're absurd.

 

[Catastrophe]

At the risk of repeating (Korzybski) "The Map is not the Territory".

Words are only abstractions. "words" are not "reality".

Cat

 

[Geoff Dann]

Many educated people believe that consciousness is just an electro-chemical process.

Yes. And they are suffering from a form of mass-delusion. Just because lots of educated people believe something, it does not follow that it is true. Many educated people also think materialism is incoherent nonsense.

We need to think for ourselves.

 

[Geoff Dann]

The statement "consciousness is the work of the brain" is indeed a definition.

Sure it is. The problem is nobody actually means "the work of the brain" when they use the word "consciousness" in ordinary language, and, crucially, neither do you in the quoted sentence.

What you are actually trying to say here is "SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES are the work of the brain". You are actually using the word "consciousness" to mean what almost everybody actually means when they use that word, and the rest of the sentence is being proposed as a pseudo-theory. It sounds like a theory, but there's no actual theory.

If the word "consciousness" in the above sentence is actually taken to mean "the work of the brain" then the sentence reduces to "the work of the brain is the work of the brain" -- which is an empty tautology which says nothing at all about consciousness.

And the theory has a place in brain physiology and psychology. Just because you're not familiar with them doesn't mean they're absurd.

As you can hopefully see above, this statement is indeed absurd. It sounds like it means something really important, but it is, in fact, literally nonsense.

 

[Ignat]

Sure it is. The problem is nobody actually means "the work of the brain" when they use the word "consciousness" in ordinary language, and, crucially, neither do you in the quoted sentence.

What you are actually trying to say here is "SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES are the work of the brain". You are actually using the word "consciousness" to mean what almost everybody actually means when they use that word, and the rest of the sentence is being proposed as a pseudo-theory. It sounds like a theory, but there's no actual theory.

If the word "consciousness" in the above sentence is actually taken to mean "the work of the brain" then the sentence reduces to "the work of the brain is the work of the brain" -- which is an empty tautology which says nothing at all about consciousness.


As you can hopefully see above, this statement is indeed absurd. It sounds like it means something really important, but it is, in fact, literally nonsense.

The topic of consciousness and self-awareness is very interesting and difficult to understand. Maybe I'll make a post on this topic sometime.