# The Singularity

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#### ramayana

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First are these assumptions correct?<br /><br />1. Co-ordinal space is measure in units cubed, consisting of three spatial dimensions, length, width, and height.<br /><br />2. Black holes are fixed in co-ordinal space, which is to say, using a reference frame, they can be spatially located to exist within a region of space.<br /><br />3. L*W*H=Volume in general, 4/3*pi*r^3=Volume of a sphere, L*W=Area in general, and, 4*pi*r^2=Surface area of a sphere.<br /><br />4. An object that occupies co-ordinal space will have finite values regarding length, width, and height, which can be used to derive volume and area/surface area through the above equations, for general objects and spheres.<br /><br />5. Wherever there is co-ordinal space, finite values for length, width, and height will exist within that co-ordinal space, if only in that the amount of space is finite and corresponds to the three spatial dimensions of length, width, and height.<br /><br />6. A point is 0-dimensional in the use described by Hawking, and is said to exist in the center of black holes.<br /><br />The Singularity is absurd! :]

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#### ramayana

##### Guest
Come on, something has to be wrong with these assumptions?

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#### kyle_baron

##### Guest
<font color="yellow"><br />1. Co-ordinal space is measure in units cubed, consisting of three spatial dimensions, length, width, and height. <br /><br />2. Black holes are fixed in co-ordinal space, which is to say, using a reference frame, they can be spatially located to exist within a region of space. </font><br /><br />Blackholes, at or above the event horizon, have the 3 spacial dimensions: length, width, and height.<br />Below the event horizon, there is only 1 dimension (height), and it's direction is down towards the singularity.<br /><font color="yellow"><br />6. A point is 0-dimensional in the use described by Hawking, and is said to exist in the center of black holes. </font><br /><br />IMO, this is a meaningless statement.<br /><font color="yellow"><br />The Singularity is absurd! :] </font><br /><br />I agree.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

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#### ramayana

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Thx, I'll simplify it to the underlying point where I'm lost... How can something physically exist with zero volume and dimensions? That describes nothing... <br /><br />How does something have mass, but no dimensions? If it "disappears" to nothing = no D, & no volume how can it have mass??<br /><br />I don't get it. Is it a futile question?

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#### 3488

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I think it is & that is why this tread should be in Phenomena.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

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#### bobw

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<font color="yellow">6. A point is 0-dimensional in the use described by Hawking, and is said to exist in the center of black holes.<br /><br />The Singularity is absurd! :] </font><br /><br />Here's what Dr. Sten Odenwald says about it in one of those "Astronomy Question" websites. It makes sense to me. I have tried several times to find which Planck Scale units would combine to give the 10^94 grams per cubic centimeter density limit but haven't had much luck. I think it might have something to do with a Planckton<br /><br />http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q1503.html<br /><br /><i><b>Can matter really become infinitely compressed in a singularity?</b><br /><br />"As I noted in a previous question, it is believed by many physicists that when Einstein's general relativity and quantum mechanics FINALLY get married together in some 'Theory of Everything' that there will appear limits on the size, time and mass of physical events in our physical universe. Combining these 'Planck Scale' units one can derive a limiting density near 10^94 grams pre cubic centimeter, and it is believed that this replaces the 'infinite density and curvature' condition predicted for singularities according to the less-complete theory of general relativity.<br /><br />At least that is the hope. "</i><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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#### ramayana

##### Guest
Sorry, if I posted in the wrong section, I had the belief singularities are part of legitimate scientific models or theories... No??<br /><br />I won't be offended if the thread is moved, would like some help understanding how it is concluded that everything consumed by black holes fits into a space of 0. Even if compressed to quarks or some other fundemental particle, don't these particles still have some volume and dimensions?<br /><br />If there is no coordinate, no dimension, no volume, how can there even be an event horizon?? Wouldn't the horizon be centered over nothing?

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#### ramayana

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Thx Bobw! That helps, so you suggest current definitions are wrong? Makes more sense to me...

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#### bobw

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Not so much wrong as, maybe, shorthand <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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#### ramayana

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My shorthand?? huh? lol

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#### bobw

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I don't know... Maybe the infinity in the equations can be treated like a removable discontinuity when doing integration... just ignore it. It's a lot easier to say "infinite density" than 10^94 grams per cubic centimeter. I just don't take the 0 dimension part too literally. I think if the mass doesn't disappear it must still be there, like you implied in your first post. Things are a lot less spooky if it stops short of infinity. Anyway, it looks like Dr. Odenwald agrees with you too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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#### heyscottie

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But remember -- given CURRENT understanding of physics, there is no known mechanism that can stop the collapse of mass, meaning it will indeed collapse to a singularity.<br /><br />Bobw's hope is a valid one -- that an eventual more complete understanding of gravity will get us around this difficulty. But for now, that's the best we have. Anything else is speculation. Of course, speculation may tend closer to reality, but then again, it may not. It is, by definition, speculative.

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#### nojocujo

##### Guest
For some reason the Planck units are not disturbed by a curved spacetime. GR breaks down at the event horizon in that times stops instead of incrementally being affected relativistically below the event horizon. Additionally Planck length should follow spacetime curvature at the quantum level at high energies. The problem with a bh is that you begin to see gravitational effects at the quantum level. Two systems GR and QM colliding neither designed to incorporate the other. <br /><br />The term everything is relative should be applied to the Planck scales at high gravtational energies.

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#### vandivx

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"How can something physically exist with zero volume and dimensions? "<br />---<br /><br />congratulation on refusing irrationalities of today's physics, I recommend you don't try to make career in academia and either work on the implied problem yourself of wait untill somebody works it out, I asure you there is mechanism in nature which prevents collapse into singularity<br /><br />IMO pple who believe such collapse would also believe that electron shells in atoms would collapse tight against its nucleus if we already didn't have the experimental evidence (and some theoretical understanding) that such collapse doesn't happen, unfortunately black holes are not experimentally accessible as the atoms make up is<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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#### alokmohan

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Who says singularity has zoro volume.It has a dimension 10to the power minus 33.

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#### kmarinas86

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Thank you for asking these questions, I really learned something from this.<br /> Again, thank you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

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