The size of space.

[TheGreatVoid]

I had a discussion today with my kids about the size of space. After much pondering and trying to comprehend it, we concluded that actually space is nothing, therefore it doesn't exist. Problem solved. How much time has been wasted trying to work this out? It took us 10 minutes. Ha!

 

[MeteorWayne]

Well, you are wrong. Space is not nothing. It is a sea of energy and virtual particles, with electromagnetic radiation, particles, and gravity waves coursing through it. No wonder it only took you 10 minutes!

 

[TheGreatVoid]

All those things you mention exist in the thing we call space, which is nothing. They just exist. Space seems to defy rational thought and logic because if it is nothing, it doesn't have to obey any of the laws of physics.

 

[yevaud]

Ah, but it's not "nothing." You can't see air, but it doesn't stop you from breathing it, now does it?!

 

[TheGreatVoid]

Air is simply made of particles we can't see, which exist in space (nothing). Com'on, you know I'm right.

 

[yevaud]

You can't see Cosmic Rays either, but damn they make nifty Aurorae when they interact with our atmosphere, hey?

Can't see radiation, but it can kill you.

Can't see Gravity, but you're affixed firmly to the ground, aren't you?

I could go on, but you get my point.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I could go on, but you get my point.

Somehow, I doubt that

 

[TheGreatVoid]

You seem to be missing MY point. All those things you describe are related to subatomic carrier particles, you know, very tiny things that exist IN SPACE (NOTHING)!

 

[yevaud]

Sorry, but the effects of frame-dragging and time-dilation have been confirmed time and again. Pretty substantial for "nothing" being warped and stretched.

 

[TheGreatVoid]

Further to that, you seem to be forgetting the original topic, which was the SIZE of space, which is the one thing that no one can get their head round, simply because it's impossible. Space defies logic; space is infinite, infinity isn't logical. If we look at space as not actually existing, we don't have to worry about how big it is any more, just how far apart the stuff in it is. This theory allows it to be infinite.

 

[yevaud]

Telling me to "return to the OP," when you appear to deny the basis of the OP's very existence, strikes me as more than a bit weird.

 

[MeteorWayne]

The Great Void: (Hmmm, I wonder where it is???)

Once again, wrong. Space has been expanding since the Big Bang. That is well supported current theory.
Perhaps you should get yourself up to speed before discussing the issue with your kids.


Gimme a "T"

 

[TheGreatVoid]

Space isn't expanding, all the particles in it are just getting further apart. Space can't expand because it is infinite. :lol:

 

[MeteorWayne]

Welcome to early 20th century physics.

Gimme an "R"

 

[yevaud]

Space isn't expanding, all the particles in it are just getting further apart. Space can't expand because it is infinite. :lol:

It is mathematically finite, but is in reality what's known as a "no boundary" condition.

I might add - we're like this here - care to explain why all particles are "getting further apart?" What's the prime mover behind this?

[Edit: I meant to type "finite," but said "infinite" by accident. My bad.]

 

[ZenGalacticore]

Is space infinite? I thought it had been determined that it was finite, but unbounded, as well as expanding.

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Is space infinite? I thought it had been determined that it was finite, but unbounded, as well as expanding.

I didn't think space had been determined to either be finite or infinite. What has been measured is it's curvature and so far it's flat with Ω0 = 1 +/- 0.01. This has implications on the shape of the Universe and, I think, on it's size. But this is over my pay scale so I welcome more informed input. :ugeek:

 

[yevaud]

Per Hawking, spacetime is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge.

 

[SpeedFreek]

You seem to be missing MY point. All those things you describe are related to subatomic carrier particles, you know, very tiny things that exist IN SPACE (NOTHING)!

Theory has it that there is no such thing as empty space, due to the quantum foam.

 

[spacelover175]

well my opinion based off of facts is that space is a never ending black nothingness including everything astronomy has to offer

 

[MeteorWayne]

Since your opinion isn't based on any science (after all, it's just an unsupported opinion) it doesn't carry a lot of weight.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

well my opinion based off of facts is that space is a never ending black nothingness including everything astronomy has to offer

Can you define "nothingness" for the audience?

Everything "Astronomy has to offer"? Don't you mean everything we can see and detect in the various spectra? Oh, that's right, you are "off the facts".

 

[Vax]

Even the "black stuff" we can't see is energy.. We know the energy exists because the affect it has on the surrounding universe. Proof that "nothing" (dark-matter) has an affect on the universe is the constant expansion of space. Since the expansion of the universe is constant it cannot be determined, only for that nanosecond in time until it expands more. Therefore the word infinite, when used to measure space is just an easy way of saying we COULD in theory measure it but it doesn't stop for us to measure it. The word finite when used to measure the size of the universe is just an easy way of saying that the universe DOES have a certain size, it's just increasing to infinity over time. Using the information we know on how large the physical universe is could only tell us how to calculate how large it could be in the future, if the size at any given time was obtainable.

I THINK :lol:

 

[Flatland]

I think the OP is a troll.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hence my "T" and "R" so far