the universe is teasing me

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int32h

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It is..<br /><br />The thing that bugs me often and drives me crazy is HOW did it all start :/ there has to be something to make something, and the something that made something needed something to make the universe.. what was before the universe? nothing? it cant be nothing, that doesnt sound possible. So, what was it? i know this cant be explained (but im sure religion will find a story for it) no offense but religion isnt good enough, personally thats just harry potter crap taken a bit too far over the years. If you believe it was god, then, who made god? nothing can possibly be created by nothing. <br /><br />Anyway this post may seem a bit intense, but what is your opinion? is there any reasonable way to explain why the universe/space and time even exist?
 
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derekmcd

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Its turtles all the way down...<br /><br />There's an active thread here concerning your inquiry. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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weeman

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<font color="yellow"> Anyway this post may seem a bit intense, but what is your opinion? </font><br /><br />IMO, there was something before this universe. I don't believe it was the beginning of time, just the beginning of this universe. I'm not an extremely spiritual person, but at the same time I accept the possibility that there is much more to the universe than what meets the eye. <br /><br />I believe that randomness is possible, I also believe that coincidences are possible. However, strange things do happen in our world. Things that would seem to rule out the possibilty of coincidence, randomness, and chaos. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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adrenalynn

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Welcome Interrupt [user]! (That was at offset 00C8 in the Phoenix PC/XT BIOS... Thanks for digging that up in my ancient memory [sigh] [;)])<br /><br />First-Mover is always the big unknowable question. There couldn't probably have <i>been</i> any "before". Time probably couldn't have existed before the Big Bang, so there may be an underlying logical fallicy in your pain. That still doesn't really answer First Mover. But there are probably things that are too small, or too far removed from our universe, for us to observe.<br /><br />Again, though, welcome! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>
 
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int32h

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If time travel were possible today I would really like to know what would happen if you "tried" to travel back about 14 billion years? I think it would be like rewinding a VCD. Eventually that rewining process has to stop and you cant go back no further. Maybe that's what would happen. Thats weird. <br /><br />Before i come up with the "rewinding a tape" idea, I tried to think of what it would be like when there was literally nothing and the first thing I thought of (as most people would) is darkness, like being in a pitch black room or like space as we know it now but with no stars or planets, just empty. But thats still something isnt it? thats still space , an empty space. eh well I will never know, and that truly bugs me lol. I can read as much as I want about these things but they dont really answer the question. The closest thing to an answer will always be a theory...<br /><br />xor time,time
 
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adrenalynn

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Light requires something - photons. Dark doesn't have such requirement. No photons, no light, perceived as Darkness. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>
 
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SpeedFreek

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Yes, it's a tough concept to visualise - "nothingness".<br /><br />A total absence of anything, no light, no dark, no matter, no space, no dimensions and no time!<br /><br />Would it just be blackness, stretching forever? How can it be, when stretching implies dimensions and forever implies time? There would be no blackness as there is no space in which for that blackness to <i>be</i>, and no time passing for it to be <i>in</i>.<br /><br />If we try to introduce our thoughts to this <i>nothingness</i> we cannot comprehend it without imposing dimensions and time upon it and those properties do not exist here. It is the ultimate application of the uncertainty principle, it is the collapse of the first wavefunction, but without a wave to function! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Our thought experiment has to produce a little big-bang of its own in order to make space and time in which to consider that thought!<br /><br />But, the truth is we simply don't know what exists outside of our universe, or "before" it. From our point of view, there is <i>nothing</i> but the universe itself, so we might think that when the universe didn't exist there was simply nothing. But we could be completely wrong - the universe might simply be a sub-set of dimensions that occurred within some other dimensions, separated dimensionally so as to be mutually exclusive. Or something else entirely... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>
 
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int32h

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there is a danger of this driving me insane <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I cant stop thinkiing about it. It's just so crazy and unexplainable.. almost everything can be explained but no, not this. It's just a never ending question. some people say its the big bang but then you could say "so what made a big bang?" then they have a theory of what made it, yet it still makes no sense as to what made the thing that made the big bang.. if something made a big bang then something had to exist to make it, right? I think i should drop this subject and never think about it again before i go nuts! it's almost like we were put here purposely. Maybe 1 day we'll know what really happend, and that thought makes me happy, but then there is probably more chance of us never-ever knowing the truth, and thats what scares me. (yes, i am a strange object) <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />
 
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derekmcd

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How can you let nothing driving you insane? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I like to think of 'nothingness' as unobservable and unable to be put into term. A void can be observed, darkness can be observed, empty space can be observed... etc, etc. Nothing implies the lack of something in a defined volume. IOW, there is no term for what is before the big bang or what lies beyond the universe.<br /><br />I don't want to say it is an irrelevant question... it's not. It's a fair question. Just don't expect to find any reasonable answers. Again...<br /><br />"Turtles all the way down"<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>(yes, i am a strange object)<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Only when you were a quark <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Welcome to SDC!<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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bdewoody

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What teases me is that we are discovering all that is out there and at least currently we've got no way to get there and most scientists agree we won't ever have a means to leave our solar system and get back in one lifetime. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>
 
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kelvinzero

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Most scientists would agree that with forseeable technology the trip would take hundreds of years. Not quite the same thing!<br /><br />Besides.. you should learn to love the dozens of worlds you have before demanding new toys <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <br /><br />Here is a quote for any SF freaks: <i>"I heard what you said. Im not coming back to the hoop."</i>
 
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siarad

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>there has to be something to make something, <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />That's a 'point of view' not fact, science just hasn't been able to explain it yet & maybe never will <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />Confused how you can worry over 'nothing' it's going to explode your brain <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />
 
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weeman

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I agree, siarad.<br /><br />We're trying to use the physics and science of our universe to explain what happened before the universe even existed. Our science does not have to apply to a pre-big bang scenario for it to make sense. <br /><br />Even multi-verse theory suggests that other universes may not govern the same laws of science as our universe; they may have something completely different. <br /><br />Yet, there's a good chance that those universes exist in perfect harmony just like our own. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>
 
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emperor_of_localgroup

Guest
<font color="cyan"> (yes, i am a strange object) </font><br /><br /><br />No, absolutely not. From high school to early college I also had similar constant thought. I'm sure there are others (though not very many) whose curiosities about life/universe also haunt them regularly, if not daily. Note, religions did a good job in covering up the truth so human can live a fun-filled life and not being bothered by the most important question.<br /><br /><br />Common sense tells us there must have been something in the very beginning. These massive matters in the universe cannot come from nothing. Big Bang doesn't have an answer to this 'common sense'. That's why the big bang followers will go distance to prove 'something can come out of nothing' as virtual things. The problem is their 'nothing' may not be 'nothing' but something else. This 'common sense' also causes problems for 'time' as we know it. That's why big bang people conveniently place start of time at the start of big bang.<br /><br /><br />Then , what is the real truth? Of course, no one knows. Thesedays one notion I play with in my mind is, the universe may have been here all along but its real structure is beyond our imagination/thinking capacity. What we see perhaps is a small side effect of our built-in sensory processes. Evolution got us into its hard grip preventing us from exploring real nature of the universe.<br /><br />Hope you can overcome this questioning period of your life and be able to live a healthy fruitful life. But don't stop thinking.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Earth is Boring</strong></font> </div>
 
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int32h

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Also something else I'm curious about is how big might space be? Does it really go on and on for an everlasting, limitless amount of time? Or maybe if we could travel much MUCH faster than the speed of light for a million years (or much less, who knows) is there a chance we could hit a dead end? or maybe we'd end up back where we started? yes, I know after a million years you tend to get old and die, but this is just a thought. <br /><br />I know we cant possibly be alone in this universe, there HAS to be life out there, and, probably far superior than our own. I believe there is alot of info about this subject hidden away from the public! But, could these superior beings answer these questions? I believe not <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> The thought of there being life out there is more like a fantasy.<br /><br />So now I puzzle myself with 2 questions: why is there a universe and how big is it. <br /><br />
 
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SpeedFreek

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Well, we think our observable part of the universe is currently around 46.5 billion light years in radius, but has only been around for 13.7 billion years. So the edge of our observable universe is receding from us in all directions, much faster than the speed of light.<br /><br />But the whole universe could be <i>any</i> size larger than that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>
 
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Jerramy

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Our viewing area cant be any wider than the amount of time we've been here, times the distance light travels per unit time.<br /><br />So if the light left that galaxy 13 billion years ago, and it got here after traveling through 13 billion light years of space, then that is how far away that thing was 13 billion years ago? Or has space's spreading slowed down light?<br /><br />So are you saying that although that galaxy -appears- to be 13 billion light years away, it is estimated to be 45 billion light years away -currently- (whatever that means in relativistic terms over 13 to 45 billion light years).<br /><br />
 
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vandivx

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"Yes, it's a tough concept to visualise - "nothingness".<br /><br />A total absence of anything, no light, no dark, no matter, no space, no dimensions and no time!<br /><br />Would it just be blackness, stretching forever? How can it be, when stretching implies dimensions and forever implies time? There would be no blackness as there is no space in which for that blackness to be, and no time passing for it to be in."<br />-------------------------------------------<br />/edited: added these two lines to separate above quote from my post<br />-------------------------------------------<br />concept 'nothing' means absence of particular 'something' such as absence of fruit in basket, the concept is being taken out of its domain of validity when we consider absence of everything in the scientific (or existential) sense, we could never form such concept in the first place (that is concept which would denote utter nothing) because total absence of anything simply doesn't happen in our experience and can't happen<br /><br />technically science (philosophy) uses term 'void' when talking about this issue and it is understood that void can't exist in actual reality, it is just a label to be used in arguments refuting possibility of existence of utter nothingness<br /><br />I'd say that there was always something for eternity but that something doesn't mean matter as we know it but rather underlying ether stuff from which matter can arise and vanish into it again, all that endures is this most basic ether stuff which is existential primary<br /><br />think of ether stuff as rope on which you can have loops that become knots when they grow more complex, matter in this analogy is the knots and so matter can get 'untied' and we are left with plain rope...<br /><br />I am open to possibility that the matter universe as we know it can get untied in this sense and all matter can vanish for a time to appear again at some point due to changing conditions in ether (stretching or growing more slack an <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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kelvinzero

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<font color="yellow">So if the light left that galaxy 13 billion years ago, and it got here after traveling through 13 billion light years of space, then that is how far away that thing was 13 billion years ago?</font><br /><br />Here is a link that says 45 billion ly I think. It sounds odd but has something to do with the inflation of space carrying things away from us at greater than light speed, which is apparently ok.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe<br /><br />I sure cant back that up. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />
 
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SpeedFreek

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<font color="#ff0000">So if the light left that galaxy 13 billion years ago, and it got here after traveling through 13 billion light years of space, then that is how far away that thing was 13 billion years ago? Or has space's spreading slowed down light? <br /> <br />So are you saying that although that galaxy -appears- to be 13 billion light years away, it is estimated to be 45 billion light years away -currently- (whatever that means in relativistic terms over 13 to 45 billion light years). </font><br /> <br />The light from our most distant galaxy has been travelling travelling for around 13 billion years, so we say that galaxy is 13 billion light years away, when using the distance measurement of "light-travel time". <br /> <br />That galaxy was only 2 or 3 billion years away from us when it emitted that light 13 billion years ago and it is the expansion of space that caused that light to take so long to reach us. As the light started its journey towards us, space was "stretching" at a faster rate at that time than the light could move, putting extra distance in between that light and us. As time went on and the rate of expansion slowed, the light progressed towards us until it finally reached us 13 billion years later. <br /> <br />The stretching of that space means that a galaxy at the edge of our observable universe, whose light has been travelling for over 13 billion years, is now estimated to be anything up to 46 billion light years away (this is known as the comoving distance, where objects are estimated to be <em>now</em>). <br /> <br />See Distance Scales of the Universe for a more thorough explanation. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>
 
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Jerramy

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"since void or utter nothing can't exist I take it that this ether background to existence always exists, it is timeless and stretches forever without end"<br /><br />Nice insight.
 
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Jerramy

Guest
"That galaxy was only 2 or 3 billion years away from us when it emitted that light 13 billion years ago "<br /><br />Thank you, that clears it up.<br />
 
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adrenalynn

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<font color="yellow">no dark</font><br /><br />Grrr.<br /><br />"Dark" doesn't exist. Dark is the absense of photons (light). If light doesn't exist (ie. no photons) then it *must* be dark. Void would be perceived as dark, although if you were there to perceive it and measure it, it would no longer be a void. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>
 
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