Time Diliation and Quantum Entanglement

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PJay_A

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I was wondering if any studies have been done concerning entangled particles where one experiences time dialation relative to the other. What I am wondering is if the entangled particles' communication will continue to be on sync with each other's time (i.e. information between the particles for an observer will seem to be exchanging back and forth through time). My curiosity is if entangled particles become entangled in time as well "space". If so, in theory, any way, it might be possible to make primative "early warning" systems that communicate microseconds into a possible future!
 
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kyle_baron

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I would think that if entangled particles communicate in any time mode, it would violate General Relativity's space-time. It's more likely, that entangled particles operate "outside" of time (space-time).
 
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sanjivdhir

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yes......maybe the photon is so small that it escapes time-space and entangles at the "edge" of space-time?

at the edge of space-time everything could be connected and the concept of discreet and continus would not be there.

most of the laws would be not be applicable either, they would simply be irrelevant/extraneous...i guess.
 
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MeteorWayne

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Or maybe photons are really cheeseburgers, and there are a billion drooling mouths around the edge of the Universe. That makes as much sense ;;; :roll:
 
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ramparts

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MW, shut up already! I told you not to spread around my cheeseburger particle theory, physicists might come here and steal it!
 
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darkmatter4brains

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Actually, I'm not sure those earlier posts are that far off, as far as the "outside" spacetime thing. If you plug c into the Lorentz contraction formulas, they do seem to say at c, there is zero space and zero time between any two "events" - in that frame. In a way, particles that travel at c, ARE partially "outside" space-time.

I remember asking about this in school and my teacher telling me the equations break down, it's incorrect to think that way about it, blah, blah, blah. Then 10 years later I'm watching a show on neutrinos and guess what, they said the same thing! If nuetrinos moved at c, they would NOT sense the passage of time, they would see zero time on their passage from the Sun the Earth, and therefore they could not oscillate. Since they do oscillate, clearly they have a small mass and travel at less than c.

Anyhow, viewing it from that perspective does make entanglement even more interesting to think about!

However, it would still be impossible to use them to send messages, either forward or backwards in time. Whether they were massless or had mass. You never know what you're going to get for sure with a quantum system upon measurement - you only know the probabilities of potential outcomes. This makes quite a stumbling block for sending messages.
 
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kyle_baron

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IMO, Quantum Entanglement indicates a hidden, timeless dimension. The reason is, for the photons wave (function) to collapse instantly over the entire universe (billions of LY's) requires this. Along with the fact that the photon itself, operates outside of time in our dimension.
 
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ramparts

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kyle_baron":clam5eke said:
IMO, Quantum Entanglement indicates a hidden, timeless dimension.
Huh? By "timeless" do you mean "spatial"... like three of our normal dimensions, or something different?

The reason is, for the photons wave (function) to collapse instantly over the entire universe (billions of LY's) requires this.
Wait... really? What does that mean?

Along with the fact that the photon itself, operates outside of time in our dimension.
You do realize we have more than one dimension, yes? We live on four of them, in fact.
 
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lanceromega

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PJay_A":3l079hek said:
I was wondering if any studies have been done concerning entangled particles where one experiences time dialation relative to the other. What I am wondering is if the entangled particles' communication will continue to be on sync with each other's time (i.e. information between the particles for an observer will seem to be exchanging back and forth through time). My curiosity is if entangled particles become entangled in time as well "space". If so, in theory, any way, it might be possible to make primative "early warning" systems that communicate microseconds into a possible future!
actually there is several papers written on acceleration and change of inertial frames for system that is quantum entangled. Apparently change of inertial frame or acceleration will cause the entanglement to collasp due to a flow of uruh radiation ( no not the chick from
star trek)..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050814164431.htm
Alice Falls Into A Black Hole: Acceleration And Quantum Entanglement

there is also an the paper " Entangled quantum clocks for measuring proper-time difference" which look at how we would be able to see the different in time in seperate inertia frame, but the first paper i mention make this hard to do. The entanglement state is delicate and acceleration to relativitic speeds could result in it collasp. This is supported by
Shih-Yuin Lin is a professor at Physics Division, National Center for Theoretical Sciences, Taiwan.

http://www.nonequilibrium.net/temporal-spatial-dependence-quantum-entanglement//[url] who states : "we did not see any evidence of entanglement creation outside the light cone" and by [url]http://arxiv.org/ftp/quant-ph/papers/0604/0604007.pdf also by http://www.hpc.unm.edu/~alsing/Courses/RQI/articles/gingrich_adami_prl89_p270402_Y02.pdf
Quantum Entanglement of Moving Bodies

that both claim that acceleration to relativitic velocity undo's the entanglement.

There is a website you should check, just found it myself and it has alot of information, so apparently there is some research being done on this.[urlhttp://www.hpc.unm.edu/~alsing/Courses/RQI/RQI.html][/url]
 
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kyle_baron

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ramparts":3iaquvj6 said:
Huh? By "timeless" do you mean "spatial"... like three of our normal dimensions, or something different?
I mean a hidden, non-spatial, timeless dimension.

ramparts":3iaquvj6 said:
Wait... really? What does that mean?
I was using Feynman's "Sum over paths" approach to quantum mechanics. He assigned a number to each of the infinite number of paths for an electron. And showed that the average result for the probability calculated, yields exactly the same result as the Wave Function approach (Elegant Universe p.131). A path can be from Earth to the Andromeda Galaxy, and back! Or, clear across the universe!


ramparts":3iaquvj6 said:
You do realize we have more than one dimension, yes? We live on four of them, in fact.
ROFLMAO! Of course!
 
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ramparts

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kyle_baron":10k1v5p5 said:
ramparts":10k1v5p5 said:
Huh? By "timeless" do you mean "spatial"... like three of our normal dimensions, or something different?
I mean a hidden, non-spatial, timeless dimension.
Right but, what does that mean? Either a dimension is spacelike or timelike (there's a rigorous mathematical definition behind this, but the terms are pretty clear themselves). If it's non-spatial and timeless then please, what is it? We don't really know how to talk about other kinds of dimensions ;)

I was using Feynman's "Sum over paths" approach to quantum mechanics. He assigned a number to each of the infinite number of paths for an electron. And showed that the average result for the probability calculated, yields exactly the same result as the Wave Function approach (Elegant Universe p.131). A path can be from Earth to the Andromeda Galaxy, and back! Or, clear across the universe!
You can't just use Feynman's path integrals approach - at least, not without digging into the path integrals :) And I assure you, those are not easy! Also, you haven't showed how path integrals require a "hidden, timeless dimension"...

ramparts":10k1v5p5 said:
You do realize we have more than one dimension, yes? We live on four of them, in fact.
ROFLMAO! Of course!
Good :lol:
 
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darkmatter4brains

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ramparts":35feotqs said:
I was using Feynman's "Sum over paths" approach to quantum mechanics. He assigned a number to each of the infinite number of paths for an electron. And showed that the average result for the probability calculated, yields exactly the same result as the Wave Function approach (Elegant Universe p.131). A path can be from Earth to the Andromeda Galaxy, and back! Or, clear across the universe!
You can't just use Feynman's path integrals approach - at least, not without digging into the path integrals :) And I assure you, those are not easy! Also, you haven't showed how path integrals require a "hidden, timeless dimension"...
For some problems, it can be a heck of a lot easier constructing the propagator using Feynman's Path Integral approach than it is to construct it from the eigenkets of the Hamiltonian via Schrodinger's approach.

I personally like Kyle_Barons idea. When you hear things like a particle traveling at c does not sense time and sees zero space between two events, that sure gets me thinking of higher dimensions. A photon is basically everywhere before it ever left! I know string theorists, etc talk about higher SPATIAL dimensions , but what does spatial even mean in this context? I'm pretty sure a 6th spatial dimension is unlike anything we've experienced and is far from what we normally refer to as "space". Anyhow, I think "hidden" higher dimensions are the "in" thing now and will be for a long time to come. Seems like every attempt at a "theory of everything" evokes that idea anymore.
 
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kyle_baron

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darkmatter4brains":26n95fem said:
For some problems, it can be a heck of a lot easier constructing the propagator using Feynman's Path Integral approach than it is to construct it from the eigenkets of the Hamiltonian via Schrodinger's approach.

I personally like Kyle_Barons idea. When you hear things like a particle traveling at c does not sense time and sees zero space between two events, that sure gets me thinking of higher dimensions. A photon is basically everywhere before it ever left! I know string theorists, etc talk about higher SPATIAL dimensions , but what does spatial even mean in this context? I'm pretty sure a 6th spatial dimension is unlike anything we've experienced and is far from what we normally refer to as "space". Anyhow, I think "hidden" higher dimensions are the "in" thing now and will be for a long time to come. Seems like every attempt at a "theory of everything" evokes that idea anymore.
It's nice to hear from someone with an open mind, and really knows what he's talking about. Thanks. :D
 
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BuckRodgers

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I think when all is said and done we will find only the four dimensions we know. Time is the dimension we do not understand. All things with mass or mometum exist in the spacetime dimension. Things can exist
in only 3 dimensions outside of our observable time frame. The precursor to the neutron may exist here and for some reason called the big bang they precipitated into 4 dimensional space. The internal structure of a nucleus allows for no spacetime beteween them therefore the sub nucleonic particles can move freely in and out of these different dimensional states.
Take note of quantum and wave nature of a particle. We can observe an electron but cannot be certain of its position or speed. This is because as the nucleus of an atom fluctuates with the resonance detemined by periodicty of the wave nature of a particle; it moves the electron in and out of spacetime as we can observe. When the proton is converted to a neutron it's correspoding electron ceses to exist. When it reappears it does so in another location at the same quantum energy as the particle that ceased to exist. Due to the spatial orientation of the new proton that was formed it does this at a frequency that may determined by harmonics in nature that are trying to be calculated by the string theory.
Since there is a wave nature due to the harmonics that exist outside of spacetime we can observe two distinct states of matter as it oscilates at certain periods determined by the type of matter that it represents. Thus the two states that exist outside of time are observable at the same time. entanglement!!
 
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andrew_t1000

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Maybe the way quantum entanglement works by "propagating" through something like "sub-space"?
 
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MeteorWayne

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And exactly what is "sub space"? (Star Trek answers don't count)
 
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andrew_t1000

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Well thats the big question isn't it?
Maybe one of the 11 dimensions that string theory talks about?
I'm still trying to get my head around the "teleporting" of a couple of molecules the CSIRO did here in Australia a couple of years ago.
The media here went nuts over that one!
 
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HellKat24

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So is Quantum Entanglement the proof of a new dimension (4th or 5th)?

Time being always explained as linear then could it not be 2D? Then Quantum Entanglement would be the 4th Dimension, right? :?
 
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kyle_baron

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HellKat24":9ilb9q1m said:
So is Quantum Entanglement the proof of a new dimension (4th or 5th)?
IMHO, I think it is a 5th dimension. I think Einstein said it best: "Time prevents everything from happening all at once." If we take this statement at face value, then Quantum Entanglement HAPPENS ALL AT ONCE. Conclusion: A fifth timeless-spaceless dimension.
 
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