TIME IS THE EXPANSION OF SPACE (and other thoughts)

Page 2 - Seeking answers about space? Join the Space community: the premier source of space exploration, innovation, and astronomy news, chronicling (and celebrating) humanity's ongoing expansion across the final frontier.
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Boilermaker

Guest
well, that's how we know that "Time" is relative, because C is constant, so any discrepancies is caused by the relativity of time to the observers.


but riddle me this batman:

if time as well as space came into existence after the big bang event began, then whatever instigated, caused, or precipitated the event we call the big bang happened where there was no space and when there was no time.

in other words, apparently things can still happen and exist with no time or space to exist in. The vacuum would be something, the initial quantum singularity would be something. m branes would be something, strange thing to try and imagine.

the big bang singularity contained all that now is, in a minute point. where ever that point existed, however it came to be, it was unstable, because it did not remain in a stable condition but went through an enormous change in condition. It's hard to imagine how something can come to be which would evolve as this did.

there has to be another reality, but many people will say, if we can't prove it or demonstrate it, it's not worth thinking about............but that's what imagination is for..........it can take us faster than light to beyond the stars and down past the event horizon where I believe, there is no gravity at all............did I mention that before? I don't believe there is gravity inside the event horizon, I think..........imagine is a better word, that a black hole would tear a hole is space/time and so beyond the event horizon is black because there is no space to conduct energy including light.

I am imagining that space is a field of strings as I said.......(indulge me, its not a theory, just a fantasy) and that black holes when they form tear a hole in the field, they spin faster as they collapse and suck space/time in with them and it tears and leaves a "void" in the field with a distorted edge which retains the whirlpool effect on light moving toward it which makes it appear as if it is still spinning and attracting with gravity which it is not. Time has stopped completely for the singularity itself (without expansion of space, no time) and locally the event has slowed time down considerably as the "initial" immense gravitational affect on the expansion of local space near the black hole has made it appear as if the event has continued and as if the attraction on nearby bodies still continues, it does not. This is an echo we see.

(imagine frame dragging to the extreme, with the dragging leading to complete separation)

I think that because the black hole singularity has torn a void in the strings which compose empty space and which conducts all energy and forces such as gravity, the black hole cannot conduct photons from inside to out, that is why they are black, not because they have such a strong gravitational force, I believe they have none at all, after they become black holes, just before hand, lots of gravity, just after, none.

No strings =no space, no distortion of space = no gravity well, no strings = no transmission of light = blackness........see?

now, I am just an idiot with an imagination, not a scientist, I don't intend to be insulting people with these thoughts just prodding their imagination and if I need a lesson or two, maybe this is the place I can get it, but please, be kind and try and picture what I'm saying because I have a picture sort of imagination.....I draw a lot and imagine a lot more.

so, what do you think of that gibberish?
 
K

KurtVonFritz

Guest
Guys, please concentrate, and leave the barns and travelling trains behind, this aint a train station.
After reading these two pages one may come to the conclusion that:
Time can be influenced, as it is indeed a relative unit of change/motion of each atom and the entire expansion of space. Time is the difference between the state of all atoms within you today, and their state tomorrow, and time cannot be reversed as there is no registered history of each atom in the universe, but that does not constrain me from thinking on the matter for myself. This is also the key to eternity, please give me some serious answers here.
Motion of atoms can be influenced, so!
Gravity or velocity are the matters that are of interest/someone here thinks just like i do/, and gravity seems easier to obtain, and be used to manipulate "time", lets not argue over "time" but argue how to manipulate it, ok?
By the way, scientific discoveries are mostly a deed of people who had that particular scientific discipline as a hobby, so if you have an openminded outside view you should be able to creatively continue here. So how do we get artificial gravity/not electric gravity youtube stuff to fool the masses/?
 
A

atlantisworp

Guest
Time is just another name for dynamics. Who can stop motion can also stop time.
 
K

KurtVonFritz

Guest
Hey boiler,
I guess this is what you need, stopping motion... and any ideas on artificial gravity? i think this is the key closest to us, i mean stopping motion-I wouldnt freeze myself since my cells would blow due to the expansion of ice, what was that other freezing method...anyway freezing doesnt seem too optimistic for me, any other way of slowing down/stopping motion without getting killed?
Or artificial /nonelectric/ gravity?
 
A

atlantisworp

Guest
KurtVonFritz":ksxyjo0z said:
Hey boiler,
I guess this is what you need, stopping motion... and any ideas on artificial gravity? i think this is the key closest to us, i mean stopping motion-I wouldnt freeze myself since my cells would blow due to the expansion of ice, what was that other freezing method...anyway freezing doesnt seem too optimistic for me, any other way of slowing down/stopping motion without getting killed?
Or artificial /nonelectric/ gravity?
Yes you can but you need a very heavy mass to do it
 
T

TyMoore

Guest
Personally, I think you're close.

I suspect that time, entropy, the expansion of the universe, and the mysterious 'dark energy,' can all be explained by application of quantum vacuum physics to the universe as a whole. Casimir forces (and possibly van der Waal's forces) can only be explained by the realization that the vacuum is a seething cauldron of chaotic virtual particle creation and annhilation events--the electromagnetic fields generated in these events mostly cancel but they leave perceptible 'imprints' of their existence which we then interpret as attractive forces between conductive plates (Casimir Forces,) induced dipole-induced dipole moments between some molecules (van dr Waal's forces,) the capillary effect (origin of surface tension,) the origin of inertia (Hawking-Unruh Scattering), and gravity--and it may even be the Plank-scale 'engine' that drives the expansion of the universe. If time is nothing more than the volumetric imprint of almost imperceptible yet rapid, random change at the quantum vacuum level, then this suggests a definate 'arrow of time' and explains why entropy must increase...the constant scattering of individual molecules by interaction with the quantum vacuum provides us with a definate 'clock' that steadily ticks away toward the future. To travel back in time is meaningless, because this would involve resetting the universe to a previous 'vacuum field' arrangement (a staggering task!) that would rapidly (almost instantly) evolve to a different state--so time would flow differently than it had previously had--ergo, the past no longer exists because any journey to the past would result in a completely different future...

Now I just wish I could do all the math--I'm pretty sure that there must be a doctoral thesis in theoretical physics in here!
 
S

SpeedFreek

Guest
Boilermaker":37g6om70 said:
well, that's how we know that "Time" is relative, because C is constant, so any discrepancies is caused by the relativity of time to the observers.
The relativity of time and space, to the observers. If you think you understand time dilation, let's move on to the space part!

What Special Relativity tells us is that space and time are individually relative. Just as our notion of time somewhere else depends on our motion relative to that somewhere, so does our notion of length. If you could see a long spacecraft travelling at a speed close to that of light, not only would you time the clocks on board that spaceship as running at a slower rate, compared to your own, but you would also measure that spaceship as being shorter than it was when it was parked at the spaceport!

Now this is important - time-dilation and length contraction are not due to the time that light takes to travel, doppler effect or the aberration of light. It is once you calculate out those things that you find your measurements of that spaceship show it having a reduced length as well as slowed down time, when it is travelling at a relativistic speed, relative to you.

To illustrate the way that space can be dynamic in the same way as time, we can take an interstellar journey. Let's put you into a spacecraft that can move at 99% of light speed and take a trip to Alpha Centuri, 4 light years away!
For simplicity, we can forget acceleration and say the spaceship instantly accelerates (whilst somehow protecting the occupant!)

Now, at 99% of light speed, you should reach a target 4 light years away in a little over 4 years, so if you turn around and come back straight away, you should return in a little over 8 years. But as you know, at that speed your time would be dilated compared to time on Earth. That actual factor here is 7 - for every second that passes on the spaceship, 7 seconds pass on Earth.

So, a little over 8 years later you return and we ask you how long it took you to get to Alpha Centuri. Your answer would be something a little under 7 months! In the whole journey, you aged less than 14 months! (You may have heard of this before - it is known as the "paradox" of the twins)

But, what did the journey look like from your point of view? Well, at relativistic speeds there is an effect called the abberation of light, which makes the universe seem to stretch around you, as well as doppler effect and light travel time to deal with. But if you measure what you see and subtract all these effects from your calculations, you find that as soon as you were moving at 99% of c, the distance to your destination shrank from 4 light-years to a little under 7 light-months, due to length contraction! That length had to shrink, otherwise how did that journey to Alpha Centuri, at 99% of c, take less than 7 months?

On that spaceship, during the whole of your journey, your clock ticked away the seconds as normal, atoms vibrated at the same speed as they ever do, and your spaceship was always the same length. The rest of the universe must have changed around it! And it is not just time that "changed", so did space. After all, your time passed at the same rate as always, so if it is only time that changes in the rest of the universe relative to you at that speed, how would that affect the time it takes you to travel those distances? Time, space and the speed of light are all intrinsically linked such that there is no absolute way to separate time from space.

Remember, science has to work, wherever science is performed, be it on Earth, or on a spaceship moving at 99% of c. A second always lasts a second, as is evidenced by the vibrations of a cesium atom you happen to take with you wherever you go! ;)

It is tempting to think of the relativistic traveller as simply experiencing time at a slowed down rate, so their shorter elapsed time is "stretched" along the length of their journey, but how can that have any real meaning when there is no measurement that they can make that says time is running any differently from normal? It has exactly as much real meaning as saying that the universe shrank in their direction of travel! Is science performed at a distance more valid than science done on the spot?

So back to the relativity of simultaneity. When were you at Alpha Centuri? 4 years after you departed, or less than 7 months later? From the point of view of the people back on Earth it is the former, but to you it is the latter, and you have the proof - you have aged less than 14 months during the journey there and back! The bottom line here, is that there is no absolute way to state that two events separated by space are simultaneous.


Boilermaker":37g6om70 said:
but riddle me this batman:

so, what do you think of that gibberish?
I think you should have a read of this and see what you think! ;)

Black Holes : A General Introduction
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
TyMoore":2kd7fisg said:
Personally, I think you're close.

I suspect that time, entropy, the expansion of the universe, and the mysterious 'dark energy,' can all be explained by application of quantum vacuum physics to the universe as a whole. Casimir forces (and possibly van der Waal's forces) can only be explained by the realization that the vacuum is a seething cauldron of chaotic virtual particle creation and annhilation events--the electromagnetic fields generated in these events mostly cancel but they leave perceptible 'imprints' of their existence which we then interpret as attractive forces between conductive plates (Casimir Forces,) induced dipole-induced dipole moments between some molecules (van dr Waal's forces,) the capillary effect (origin of surface tension,) the origin of inertia (Hawking-Unruh Scattering), and gravity--and it may even be the Plank-scale 'engine' that drives the expansion of the universe. If time is nothing more than the volumetric imprint of almost imperceptible yet rapid, random change at the quantum vacuum level, then this suggests a definate 'arrow of time' and explains why entropy must increase...the constant scattering of individual molecules by interaction with the quantum vacuum provides us with a definate 'clock' that steadily ticks away toward the future. To travel back in time is meaningless, because this would involve resetting the universe to a previous 'vacuum field' arrangement (a staggering task!) that would rapidly (almost instantly) evolve to a different state--so time would flow differently than it had previously had--ergo, the past no longer exists because any journey to the past would result in a completely different future...

Now I just wish I could do all the math--I'm pretty sure that there must be a doctoral thesis in theoretical physics in here!
Now that you have managed to put all of the current physics buzz words in a single paragraph, would you care to put forth a cogent theory ?
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
Dear SpeedFreek,

I have your answer!

it has to be caused by the velocity being equivalent to mass and the mass effect on space is gravity and in my mind at least gravity contracts space so as you go forward you have to add the gravitational effect of the relative mass on the space before the space ship at .9 of C

if you know how much the distance is shortened by the velocity, as you just stated, then a simple calculation could tell you an exact formula. Whatever is the relative mass of the ship at that velocity the gravitational effect on space ahead of it results in a shortening of distance through space by a factor of 6.85.

it's the gravity that causes the shortening of the space, added to the velocity. if the velocity alone would have caused the ship to arrive at alpha centauri in 4.444 yrs but the ship arrives in 7 months then the gravitational effect on the space is 7.619 more effective than the velocity for traversing the distance...........the gravitational contraction of space is very effective indeed at shortening the space between here and there. You would not want to try and figure out a way to travel fast without gaining mass, the mass is more effective than the propulsion method at getting you there, more than seven times as effective...........I know the problems that brings, more propulsion is needed for more mass but you've already got us going at .9 of C , so take it from there.
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
Hey!!!!

that's a complete BONUS!!! if that's really true SpeedFreek, because it means that whatever speed your going you get better than seven times the distance in a second than light does. So, at a quarter the speed of light you would cross a distance of 2,285,700km in a second! which means that while we can't travel at the speed of light, we can go further in Space in a second than light does, thanks to relative mass causing gravity and contracting space in front of us! Which it doesn't do for a photon which doesn't gain mass.

I have to dash off to work................but I'll be back later to see what you've done to bust this bubble hahaha!

this would be too good to be true because it would mean we could go almost anywhere soon.
 
S

SpeedFreek

Guest
Hold your horses there! The "relativistic change factor" is only 7 at 99% of light speed - the factor changes with relative speed. As an object increases in speed, the change is very small until it reaches an appreciable percentage of c.

For instance, at 86.6% of c, the relativistic change factor is 2. One second on board ship will be equivalent to 2 seconds back on Earth, and length contraction would mean the distance of the journey shrank to half its original length - it shrank by a factor of 2

At 90% of c the relativistic change factor is 2.2
At 95% of c the factor is 3.2
At 98% of c the factor is 5
At 99% of c the factor is 7
At 99.9% of c the factor is 22.3
At 99.99% of c the factor is 70
At c, the factor is infinity!

But it does mean that if we can achieve speeds that are approaching the speed of light, it takes less than a year to travel a light-year, from the point of view of the traveller. The speed of light does not actually prevent us from (theoretically) exploring large areas of the galaxy (which is over 100,000 light years across), but it does prevent anyone who stays at home from knowing the results of that exploration for a very long time. You might make a short journey that took you only a few years, but when you came back to tell us about it (or sent back a message), thousands of years would have passed on Earth!

Have a look at The Relativistic Rocket

And if you want to try out some scenarios yourself, you could have a look at this calculator, where you enter the speed as a fraction of c in decimal form (i.e. 99% of c is 0.99 c)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... /tdil.html
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
Boilermaker":1hs56jch said:
Hey!!!!

that's a complete BONUS!!! if that's really true SpeedFreek, because it means that whatever speed your going you get better than seven times the distance in a second than light does. So, at a quarter the speed of light you would cross a distance of 2,285,700km in a second! which means that while we can't travel at the speed of light, we can go further in Space in a second than light does, thanks to relative mass causing gravity and contracting space in front of us! Which it doesn't do for a photon which doesn't gain mass.

I have to dash off to work................but I'll be back later to see what you've done to bust this bubble hahaha!

this would be too good to be true because it would mean we could go almost anywhere soon.
You have special relativity all fouled up. It is impossible to cover any distance faster than light, in any reference frame. You seem to be mixing reference frames. You have to pick one and stay with it.

What you really need is to do a serious study of special relativity and the Lorentz transformation. The best bet would be a good book on the subject, something like Introduction to Spacial Relativity by Wolfgang Rindler. Failing that this Wiki article is pretty good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity
 
T

TyMoore

Guest
DrRocket":1mukilkl said:
TyMoore":1mukilkl said:
Personally, I think you're close.

I suspect that time, entropy, the expansion of the universe, and the mysterious 'dark energy,' can all be explained by application of quantum vacuum physics to the universe as a whole. Casimir forces (and possibly van der Waal's forces) can only be explained by the realization that the vacuum is a seething cauldron of chaotic virtual particle creation and annhilation events--the electromagnetic fields generated in these events mostly cancel but they leave perceptible 'imprints' of their existence which we then interpret as attractive forces between conductive plates (Casimir Forces,) induced dipole-induced dipole moments between some molecules (van dr Waal's forces,) the capillary effect (origin of surface tension,) the origin of inertia (Hawking-Unruh Scattering), and gravity--and it may even be the Plank-scale 'engine' that drives the expansion of the universe. If time is nothing more than the volumetric imprint of almost imperceptible yet rapid, random change at the quantum vacuum level, then this suggests a definate 'arrow of time' and explains why entropy must increase...the constant scattering of individual molecules by interaction with the quantum vacuum provides us with a definate 'clock' that steadily ticks away toward the future. To travel back in time is meaningless, because this would involve resetting the universe to a previous 'vacuum field' arrangement (a staggering task!) that would rapidly (almost instantly) evolve to a different state--so time would flow differently than it had previously had--ergo, the past no longer exists because any journey to the past would result in a completely different future...

Now I just wish I could do all the math--I'm pretty sure that there must be a doctoral thesis in theoretical physics in here!
Now that you have managed to put all of the current physics buzz words in a single paragraph, would you care to put forth a cogent theory ?
I would love to. I've read Miloni's "The Quantum Vacuum" which does some nifty derivations of the Casimir Force between parallel conducting plates by applying zero point energy. I see tantalizing connections between rather disparate phenomena, but I can't pull it all together--I've tried, many times. I think there is some really wonderful physics at the Planck Scale, and I think the answers to some of the more important questions facing humanity may lie there as well. The phenomena of gravity, Casimir Forces, capillary effect, and van der Waal's forces and chemical catalytic activity can be viewed as being closely related via zero point fields--which is a tantalizing prospect. It may be possible to make the vacuum inertia of a material smaller than it otherwise would be simply by impregnating it with nanometer scale voids...by forcing a reduction in the zero-point energy density within the bulk of a solid object, its coupling to the zero-point field is less--and so will its inertia...

There are tantalizing hints that gravity may infact be a side-effect of the electromagnetic force--a fourth order term that has a very small coefficient (gravity is very weak compared to electromagnetism,) added directly to Maxwell's equations...over large distances this fourth order term vanishes and the overall effect becomes second order, just like classical EM and Gravity.

We may find that Newton's Laws apply on 'average' but there are higher order effects which, under the right circumstances, come into play. Relativity can be thought of as one such effect.

Anyway, I wish I could do all the math--because if I could, I could create that theory and see if it has some testable predictions. If it makes testable predictions, and the truth of those measurements are false, then the theory is crap. End of story....
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
SpeedFreek":cyaw3fch said:
Hold your horses there! The "relativistic change factor" is only 7 at 99% of light speed - the factor changes with relative speed. As an object increases in speed, the change is very small until it reaches an appreciable percentage of c.

For instance, at 86.6% of c, the relativistic change factor is 2. One second on board ship will be equivalent to 2 seconds back on Earth, and length contraction would mean the distance of the journey shrank to half its original length - it shrank by a factor of 2

At 90% of c the relativistic change factor is 2.2
At 95% of c the factor is 3.2
At 98% of c the factor is 5
At 99% of c the factor is 7
At 99.9% of c the factor is 22.3
At 99.99% of c the factor is 70
At c, the factor is infinity!

But it does mean that if we can achieve speeds that are approaching the speed of light, it takes less than a year to travel a light-year, from the point of view of the traveller. The speed of light does not actually prevent us from (theoretically) exploring large areas of the galaxy (which is over 100,000 light years across), but it does prevent anyone who stays at home from knowing the results of that exploration for a very long time. You might make a short journey that took you only a few years, but when you came back to tell us about it (or sent back a message), thousands of years would have passed on Earth!

Have a look at The Relativistic Rocket

And if you want to try out some scenarios yourself, you could have a look at this calculator, where you enter the speed as a fraction of c in decimal form (i.e. 99% of c is 0.99 c)

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... /tdil.html

I bet...........that rather than relative mass meaning we need more and more fuel till it's impossible to carry, or almost, in order for us to propel ourselves toward the speed of light, we need less and less as the mass presents a gravitational curve to space ahead of us which not only shortens distance before us but draws us along behind it once we give it it's direction, once the body is in motion I bet that it self propels to faster and faster speeds........

I think there is something really big right under our noses and I think...............
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
that Tymoore might just be able to see it first.....

we need scientific minds, not mine, to look at these things with fresh eyes.........as far as interstellar travel is concerned, what about this length shortening, what's going on there that we can exploit? what's causing it, is it the gravity I said I thought it was? if it is and the electromagnetic force is related maybe we can generate a gravity well ahead of us as if we had the mass to create the gravity and that could shorten our trip and put the pedal to the metal of our ship at the same time..........that way we'd be getting pulled and pushed in the same direction at the same time and that would be a real boost wouldn't it?

I bet that if we had a ship just using a gravitational sling shot effect it would be able to boost our mass enough that we would start a chain reaction of mass shortening space, pulling us forward and increasing mass and gravity and pulling us forward faster and shortening space and the whole thing could be a big exponential growth in our favor....I betcha!

c'mon you brainiacs...THINK!!! Dr....THINK! SpeedFreek...Think!!! Tymoore...Think!!!

then fill me in quick because I want out of here, the other side of the Universe is calling my name!!

hehehehe! c'mon boys, yous can do it!!
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
Boilermaker":s1r0mjfz said:
that Tymoore might just be able to see it first.....

we need scientific minds, not mine, to look at these things with fresh eyes.........as far as interstellar travel is concerned, what about this length shortening, what's going on there that we can exploit? what's causing it, is it the gravity I said I thought it was? if it is and the electromagnetic force is related maybe we can generate a gravity well ahead of us as if we had the mass to create the gravity and that could shorten our trip and put the pedal to the metal of our ship at the same time..........that way we'd be getting pulled and pushed in the same direction at the same time and that would be a real boost wouldn't it?

I bet that if we had a ship just using a gravitational sling shot effect it would be able to boost our mass enough that we would start a chain reaction of mass shortening space, pulling us forward and increasing mass and gravity and pulling us forward faster and shortening space and the whole thing could be a big exponential growth in our favor....I betcha!

c'mon you brainiacs...THINK!!! Dr....THINK! SpeedFreek...Think!!! Tymoore...Think!!!

then fill me in quick because I want out of here, the other side of the Universe is calling my name!!

hehehehe! c'mon boys, yous can do it!!
Special relativity, rather explicitly,has nothing to do with gravity.

What you are spouting is not physics. It isn't even good science fiction.

You really do need to learn some basic physics be foe you start speculating willy nilly. What you are saying is simply absurd.

This sort of wild speculation belongs in The Unexplained. It sure isn't' science.
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
TyMoore":3s9hb99y said:
DrRocket":3s9hb99y said:
TyMoore":3s9hb99y said:
Personally, I think you're close.

I suspect that time, entropy, the expansion of the universe, and the mysterious 'dark energy,' can all be explained by application of quantum vacuum physics to the universe as a whole. Casimir forces (and possibly van der Waal's forces) can only be explained by the realization that the vacuum is a seething cauldron of chaotic virtual particle creation and annhilation events--the electromagnetic fields generated in these events mostly cancel but they leave perceptible 'imprints' of their existence which we then interpret as attractive forces between conductive plates (Casimir Forces,) induced dipole-induced dipole moments between some molecules (van dr Waal's forces,) the capillary effect (origin of surface tension,) the origin of inertia (Hawking-Unruh Scattering), and gravity--and it may even be the Plank-scale 'engine' that drives the expansion of the universe. If time is nothing more than the volumetric imprint of almost imperceptible yet rapid, random change at the quantum vacuum level, then this suggests a definate 'arrow of time' and explains why entropy must increase...the constant scattering of individual molecules by interaction with the quantum vacuum provides us with a definate 'clock' that steadily ticks away toward the future. To travel back in time is meaningless, because this would involve resetting the universe to a previous 'vacuum field' arrangement (a staggering task!) that would rapidly (almost instantly) evolve to a different state--so time would flow differently than it had previously had--ergo, the past no longer exists because any journey to the past would result in a completely different future...

Now I just wish I could do all the math--I'm pretty sure that there must be a doctoral thesis in theoretical physics in here!
Now that you have managed to put all of the current physics buzz words in a single paragraph, would you care to put forth a cogent theory ?
I would love to. I've read Miloni's "The Quantum Vacuum" which does some nifty derivations of the Casimir Force between parallel conducting plates by applying zero point energy. I see tantalizing connections between rather disparate phenomena, but I can't pull it all together--I've tried, many times. I think there is some really wonderful physics at the Planck Scale, and I think the answers to some of the more important questions facing humanity may lie there as well. The phenomena of gravity, Casimir Forces, capillary effect, and van der Waal's forces and chemical catalytic activity can be viewed as being closely related via zero point fields--which is a tantalizing prospect. It may be possible to make the vacuum inertia of a material smaller than it otherwise would be simply by impregnating it with nanometer scale voids...by forcing a reduction in the zero-point energy density within the bulk of a solid object, its coupling to the zero-point field is less--and so will its inertia...

There are tantalizing hints that gravity may infact be a side-effect of the electromagnetic force--a fourth order term that has a very small coefficient (gravity is very weak compared to electromagnetism,) added directly to Maxwell's equations...over large distances this fourth order term vanishes and the overall effect becomes second order, just like classical EM and Gravity.

We may find that Newton's Laws apply on 'average' but there are higher order effects which, under the right circumstances, come into play. Relativity can be thought of as one such effect.

Anyway, I wish I could do all the math--because if I could, I could create that theory and see if it has some testable predictions. If it makes testable predictions, and the truth of those measurements are false, then the theory is crap. End of story....

"I think...I think ....I think "

I know people who think there is an Easter Bunny. And they have as much substantiation and rationale as do you.

There is a reason tha there is not such clearly defined theory. It does not exist. There is also a reason that you cannot do the math. -- there is no physical theory to which mathematics can be applied to derive anything like the nonsense that you are spouting.

This sort of nonsense belongs in The Unexplained. It is not science and it most certainly is not physics.
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
Dr.Rocket.

tell me why energy waves? Don't tell me why water waves, tell me why a photon or electron travels as a wave through space?

tell me what came first, the matter in space/time or the space/time the matter is in?


tell me how to understand the inflationary period?


tell me how to hold the belief that space itself is nothing at all but that it warps, bends and is frame drag capable?


tell me how to imagine gravity waves through the nothingness which is space, what is waving?


tell me please, if Gravity is the distortion of space by mass then how does mass generate Gravitons and how does nothingness become distorted by anything?


how can you continue to dive into Books and Theories which have given up all their milk years ago? Time for some fresh fruit, some fresh thinking, some new books, don't you think?

I myself expect the Nova Mente software to solve all our problems soon enough, as soon as we cross the A.I. event horizon the answers will come pouring in.

I understand the need for scientists to study all those books and theories, but those old books should be your history books, your building blocks, your stepping stones, Albert laid down some fine ones in some deep water, now it's your turn.......go ahead and wed quantum theory with relativity, it's been a long wait right? well, obviously there needs to be a different approach than what's obvious to scientists, or else we'd already have all the answers and the two would be one already.

until the day they are both one, we all belong in the unexplained.
 
T

TyMoore

Guest
"I think...I think ....I think "
I know people who think there is an Easter Bunny. And they have as much substantiation and rationale as do you.

There is a reason tha there is not such clearly defined theory. It does not exist. There is also a reason that you cannot do the math. -- there is no physical theory to which mathematics can be applied to derive anything like the nonsense that you are spouting.

This sort of nonsense belongs in The Unexplained. It is not science and it most certainly is not physics.

User avatar
DrRocket

Posts: 2712
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:16 pm
I agree that it sounds like nonsense--it certainly doesn't ascribe to the Standard Model, nor does it follow conventional 'gospel' of accepted physics--but as all new ideas go through a phase where it is labled as lunacy, battered to a pulp in peer review, and sometimes eventually accepted--that is a natural progression of science, and is as it should be. New ideas are shunned, tortured and tested for everything they are worth--if they stand the tests, they will pass muster.

Quantum vacuum physics--a Phenomological Physics--is a philosophy that accepts that vacuum field oscillations are essentially the basis for everything. The interpretation of the effects of quantum vacuum field fluctuations is open to debate, but the existance of the vacuum field fluctuations is not: even current theory would not work without it being an integral part of the whole works.
 
S

SpeedFreek

Guest
Boilermaker":7k9tmejn said:
I understand the need for scientists to study all those books and theories, but those old books should be your history books, your building blocks, your stepping stones, Albert laid down some fine ones in some deep water, now it's your turn.......go ahead and wed quantum theory with relativity, it's been a long wait right? well, obviously there needs to be a different approach than what's obvious to scientists, or else we'd already have all the answers and the two would be one already.

until the day they are both one, we all belong in the unexplained.
Whatever that different approach is, it has to be able to accurately describe what we already know, as well as the things we don't know. So if someone suggests something that doesn't accurately describe what we already know, it is useless. Therefore, to come up with something different, you need to know what we already know.

We know that Newtonian physics describes situations to a certain degree of accuracy, but both Special and General Relativity make more accurate predictions. We know that in other situations, none of the above make accurate predictions, but quantum mechanics work. Yes, we need something to unify these theories, but whatever it is will have to encompass all of them.

I feel it may seem like I have distracted this conversation somewhat with my posts on Special Relativity, as the OP was definitely a question that needs the consideration of General Relativity. But what I am trying to do here is show how, even using SR, our notions of time, space and simultaneity are relative, to give you a flavour of the nature of the problem with the OP at a level that is relatively easy to understand. We haven't even scratched the surface of the implications of SR yet, there are deeper levels to it such as the symmetrical nature of the Lorentz transformation, which really take away any notions of absolute space or time you might have, and all this is before we even start to think about gravity or the expansion of the universe!
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
TyMoore":2fdr7v8n said:
I agree that it sounds like nonsense--it certainly doesn't ascribe to the Standard Model, nor does it follow conventional 'gospel' of accepted physics--but as all new ideas go through a phase where it is labled as lunacy, battered to a pulp in peer review, and sometimes eventually accepted--that is a natural progression of science, and is as it should be. New ideas are shunned, tortured and tested for everything they are worth--if they stand the tests, they will pass muster.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

No, new ideas are not shunned or tortured. They are first examined to determine if testing is worthwhile. Part of that test is determining if they agree with accepted theory withing the domain of validity of the accepted theory. If so, and if the idea appears to have merit, then experiments are devised to test the idea. If it fails to pass initial muster it is consigned to the trash.

Science talks, nonsense walks.
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
Boilermaker":gfr9ynop said:
Dr.Rocket.

tell me why energy waves? Don't tell me why water waves, tell me why a photon or electron travels as a wave through space?
They don't. Waves arise only when you consider a large number of photons or electrons. Single particles are single particles. But they are quantum particles, not little marbles.

tell me what came first, the matter in space/time or the space/time the matter is in?
Space-time includes the matter and energy in space-time. Neither came first


tell me how to understand the inflationary period?
Learn some physics and mathematics. Then study and read the literature.


tell me how to hold the belief that space itself is nothing at all but that it warps, bends and is frame drag capable?
Hold it in your teeth for all I care.


tell me how to imagine gravity waves through the nothingness which is space, what is waving?
Space-time. Perhaps once there is a quantum theory of gravity the answer will be a graviton.

tell me please, if Gravity is the distortion of space by mass then how does mass generate Gravitons and how does nothingness become distorted by anything?
Nobody, most especially you, knows if there is such a thing as a graviton.


how can you continue to dive into Books and Theories which have given up all their milk years ago? Time for some fresh fruit, some fresh thinking, some new books, don't you think?
Diving into books and understand them is a sign of intelligence. Rejecting the notion of study is not. Until you have read those books and understood them, you will continue to sound like an ignorant little kid asking questions that he doesn't understand and to which he cannot comprehend correct answers when they are presented to him. More importantly you fail to understand what is known and what is not known. Only after you understand current knowledge and its limits can you ask intelligent questions regarding what remains to be discovered. you are quite a long way from that point.

I myself expect the Nova Mente software to solve all our problems soon enough, as soon as we cross the A.I. event horizon the answers will come pouring in.
This is indicative of your basic problem You expect someone else to open up your head and pour in knowledge. It doesn't work that way. In order to understand physics and even be able to ask intelligent questions it takes study and hard work. You have to pay your dues. There is no royal road to understanding.

I understand the need for scientists to study all those books and theories, but those old books should be your history books, your building blocks, your stepping stones, Albert laid down some fine ones in some deep water, now it's your turn.......go ahead and wed quantum theory with relativity, it's been a long wait right? well, obviously there needs to be a different approach than what's obvious to scientists, or else we'd already have all the answers and the two would be one already.

until the day they are both one, we all belong in the unexplained.
The knowledge of mainstream physics is indeed the building material for future theories. Physics proceeds by erecting new ideas on the scaffold provided by existing theories.

Those who refuse to pay their dues and study the existing theories are not visionaries, but only those harboring delusions. They have no chance of understanding progress in science or of making a significant contribution. The revolutionaries of the past -- Einstein, Heisenberg, Feynman, Dirac all had deep knowledge of established physics before they made their contributions by adding new concepts based on deep insight.

That is all mainstream physics.

The Unexplained is for idiotic ideas by being advocated by people who don't understand the basics and don't know what in the hell they are talking about.
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
You know, anyone who thinks that there is no such thing as a stupid question has not read this thread.

We even have examples of deliberately stupid questions. What is worse they are apparently posed by people who think they are being clever by asking them.

Ignorance due to lack of exposure or inability to gain access to resources is unfortunate. Ignorance that is the result of a deliberate decision to not learn is stupid. Truly stupid.
 
B

Boilermaker

Guest
DrRocket":1lfbgolk said:
Boilermaker":1lfbgolk said:
Dr.Rocket.

tell me why energy waves? Don't tell me why water waves, tell me why a photon or electron travels as a wave through space?
They don't. Waves arise only when you consider a large number of photons or electrons. Single particles are single particles. But they are quantum particles, not little marbles.

they don't? electron does not traverse space as a wave? a photon does not traverse space as a wave? Is that your final answer? the last sentence "but they are quantum particles, not little marbles" does not seem to match either my question or the rest of your answers, care to extrapolate?

tell me what came first, the matter in space/time or the space/time the matter is in?
Space-time includes the matter and energy in space-time. Neither came first

rubbish! I never asked you what space/time includes, can't you answer a simple question? it would involve reading comprehension, so take care. Space/time had to come first, put it this way, what came first, the room or the occupants?


tell me how to understand the inflationary period?
Learn some physics and mathematics. Then study and read the literature.

Not an answer, how do we know you've learned any math or literature, I suspect you are a Wikipedia plagiarizing cut and paste artist.


tell me how to hold the belief that space itself is nothing at all but that it warps, bends and is frame drag capable?
Hold it in your teeth for all I care.

admit it, you don't have an answer, you may have read the entire library but it has not sunk in, has it?


tell me how to imagine gravity waves through the nothingness which is space, what is waving?
Space-time. Perhaps once there is a quantum theory of gravity the answer will be a graviton.

are you saying that space/time waves? that's already been disproved a long time ago and are you also stating that you believe that when Mass distorts space/time it somehow gives off gravitons? how so?

tell me please, if Gravity is the distortion of space by mass then how does mass generate Gravitons and how does nothingness become distorted by anything?
Nobody, most especially you, knows if there is such a thing as a graviton.

especially me? why are you so jealous of me? what a childish person you are, how young are you? I think I have the wrong mental image of you, are you a rude youth?


how can you continue to dive into Books and Theories which have given up all their milk years ago? Time for some fresh fruit, some fresh thinking, some new books, don't you think?
Diving into books and understand them is a sign of intelligence. Rejecting the notion of study is not. Until you have read those books and understood them, you will continue to sound like an ignorant little kid asking questions that he doesn't understand and to which he cannot comprehend correct answers when they are presented to him. More importantly you fail to understand what is known and what is not known. Only after you understand current knowledge and its limits can you ask intelligent questions regarding what remains to be discovered. you are quite a long way from that point.

how do you know what I fail to understand? what kind of genius are you spending all your time acting pompous on a web site for the general public? I don't expect I'll be seeing you giving any Ted talks soon, maybe you're more accustomed to Quorum sensing though.

I myself expect the Nova Mente software to solve all our problems soon enough, as soon as we cross the A.I. event horizon the answers will come pouring in.
This is indicative of your basic problem You expect someone else to open up your head and pour in knowledge. It doesn't work that way. In order to understand physics and even be able to ask intelligent questions it takes study and hard work. You have to pay your dues. There is no royal road to understanding.

Listen Drphil, I asked you some questions, you are outraged and displaying your ignorance, I suppose this outlet allows you to feel superior, but that is quite sad actually, paying your dues equates with what to you? and hard work would most likely kill you, what are you talking about?

I understand the need for scientists to study all those books and theories, but those old books should be your history books, your building blocks, your stepping stones, Albert laid down some fine ones in some deep water, now it's your turn.......go ahead and wed quantum theory with relativity, it's been a long wait right? well, obviously there needs to be a different approach than what's obvious to scientists, or else we'd already have all the answers and the two would be one already.

until the day they are both one, we all belong in the unexplained.
The knowledge of mainstream physics is indeed the building material for future theories. Physics proceeds by erecting new ideas on the scaffold provided by existing theories.

Those who refuse to pay their dues and study the existing theories are not visionaries, but only those harboring delusions. They have no chance of understanding progress in science or of making a significant contribution. The revolutionaries of the past -- Einstein, Heisenberg, Feynman, Dirac all had deep knowledge of established physics before they made their contributions by adding new concepts based on deep insight.

That is all mainstream physics.

The Unexplained is for idiotic ideas by being advocated by people who don't understand the basics and don't know what in the hell they are talking about.
You should go over your posts and compare the contents of what you have said so far and then compare that ignorant arrogant tripe and pompous drivel with what some others have said, you don't even have manners so you are ignorant on many levels, I am assuming that you are unaware because you have been raised as a beast.......which explains your avatar.........another childish choice, you are like some caffeine driven hyperactive a.d.d. child with tourette syndrome.
 
D

DrRocket

Guest
Boilermaker":12cew6vg said:
DrRocket":12cew6vg said:
Boilermaker":12cew6vg said:
Dr.Rocket.

tell me why energy waves? Don't tell me why water waves, tell me why a photon or electron travels as a wave through space?
They don't. Waves arise only when you consider a large number of photons or electrons. Single particles are single particles. But they are quantum particles, not little marbles.

they don't? electron does not traverse space as a wave? a photon does not traverse space as a wave? Is that your final answer? the last sentence "but they are quantum particles, not little marbles" does not seem to match either my question or the rest of your answers, care to extrapolate?

tell me what came first, the matter in space/time or the space/time the matter is in?
Space-time includes the matter and energy in space-time. Neither came first

rubbish! I never asked you what space/time includes, can't you answer a simple question? it would involve reading comprehension, so take care. Space/time had to come first, put it this way, what came first, the room or the occupants?


tell me how to understand the inflationary period?
Learn some physics and mathematics. Then study and read the literature.

Not an answer, how do we know you've learned any math or literature, I suspect you are a Wikipedia plagiarizing cut and paste artist.


tell me how to hold the belief that space itself is nothing at all but that it warps, bends and is frame drag capable?
Hold it in your teeth for all I care.

admit it, you don't have an answer, you may have read the entire library but it has not sunk in, has it?


tell me how to imagine gravity waves through the nothingness which is space, what is waving?
Space-time. Perhaps once there is a quantum theory of gravity the answer will be a graviton.

are you saying that space/time waves? that's already been disproved a long time ago and are you also stating that you believe that when Mass distorts space/time it somehow gives off gravitons? how so?

tell me please, if Gravity is the distortion of space by mass then how does mass generate Gravitons and how does nothingness become distorted by anything?
Nobody, most especially you, knows if there is such a thing as a graviton.

especially me? why are you so jealous of me? what a childish person you are, how young are you? I think I have the wrong mental image of you, are you a rude youth?


how can you continue to dive into Books and Theories which have given up all their milk years ago? Time for some fresh fruit, some fresh thinking, some new books, don't you think?
Diving into books and understand them is a sign of intelligence. Rejecting the notion of study is not. Until you have read those books and understood them, you will continue to sound like an ignorant little kid asking questions that he doesn't understand and to which he cannot comprehend correct answers when they are presented to him. More importantly you fail to understand what is known and what is not known. Only after you understand current knowledge and its limits can you ask intelligent questions regarding what remains to be discovered. you are quite a long way from that point.

how do you know what I fail to understand? what kind of genius are you spending all your time acting pompous on a web site for the general public? I don't expect I'll be seeing you giving any Ted talks soon, maybe you're more accustomed to Quorum sensing though.

I myself expect the Nova Mente software to solve all our problems soon enough, as soon as we cross the A.I. event horizon the answers will come pouring in.
This is indicative of your basic problem You expect someone else to open up your head and pour in knowledge. It doesn't work that way. In order to understand physics and even be able to ask intelligent questions it takes study and hard work. You have to pay your dues. There is no royal road to understanding.

Listen Drphil, I asked you some questions, you are outraged and displaying your ignorance, I suppose this outlet allows you to feel superior, but that is quite sad actually, paying your dues equates with what to you? and hard work would most likely kill you, what are you talking about?

I understand the need for scientists to study all those books and theories, but those old books should be your history books, your building blocks, your stepping stones, Albert laid down some fine ones in some deep water, now it's your turn.......go ahead and wed quantum theory with relativity, it's been a long wait right? well, obviously there needs to be a different approach than what's obvious to scientists, or else we'd already have all the answers and the two would be one already.

until the day they are both one, we all belong in the unexplained.
The knowledge of mainstream physics is indeed the building material for future theories. Physics proceeds by erecting new ideas on the scaffold provided by existing theories.

Those who refuse to pay their dues and study the existing theories are not visionaries, but only those harboring delusions. They have no chance of understanding progress in science or of making a significant contribution. The revolutionaries of the past -- Einstein, Heisenberg, Feynman, Dirac all had deep knowledge of established physics before they made their contributions by adding new concepts based on deep insight.

That is all mainstream physics.

The Unexplained is for idiotic ideas by being advocated by people who don't understand the basics and don't know what in the hell they are talking about.
You should go over your posts and compare the contents of what you have said so far and then compare that ignorant arrogant tripe and pompous drivel with what some others have said, you don't even have manners so you are ignorant on many levels, I am assuming that you are unaware because you have been raised as a beast.......which explains your avatar.........another childish choice, you are like some caffeine driven hyperactive a.d.d. child with tourette syndrome.
This is ridiculous. I meant exactly what I said. Read them again and maybe you will come to understand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ASK THE COMMUNITY

Latest posts