Titan exploration

[volcanopele2]

True, but it still very much looks like noise to me.

 

[titanian]

If we put Earth at the same place as Titan, Saturn would become a satellite of Planet Earth.Right or Wrong?

 

[spacechump]

Is this a trick question?<br /><br />Earth would become a moon of Saturn as we'd be orbiting it (disregarding for a minute the slight offset of Saturn give a "two-body" situation..but it would be very slight as Saturn is much more massive than Earth). Titan is large enough to a planet in its own right if it was circling the sun. So I don't see why the earth couldn't fall into a catagory of "moon" if such means happened one day.

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>"Is this a trick question?"</i><br /><br />Maybe he's referring to the geocentrism that lead to labeling the sun, all known planets, and even the stars as satellites of Earth at one time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacechump]

Ah so a shot at humor....maybe its time for some more coffee.......*yawn*

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">If we put Earth at the same place as Titan, Saturn would become a satellite of Planet Earth.Right or Wrong? <font color="white"><br /><br />That’s an interesting thought since Saturn’s density is about .70 of water its gravitational field is approximately 1.07 of the earths although by volume Saturn is 760 times the Earths. In other words Saturn is .13 as dense as Earth. Earths density is 5.5 times as dense as water. Gravity rules in our solar system but Earth isn’t a puny planet in its own right if you account for density and gravity. There are only two planets in our solar system that would completely dominate Earth and would make it one of its moons: those are Jupiter and Neptune. Even though Uranus, by volume is 64 times larger than Earth, its gravity is .91 of Earths, here Earth would be the dominant one. <br /><br />My guess would be that there would be a tug of war between Saturn and the Earth, density would eventually win out, like binary stars exchanging atmospheres, this would go on between the Earth and Saturn. I would guess that in a long tug of war Earth would eventually steel more from Saturn than Saturn would steel from Earth, this all depends on their orbital distance from each other. To a lesser degree this may be what is going on with Titan and Saturn. That could be another hypothesis, if volcano’s aren’t found on Titan, to examine on why there is a huge gas cloud circling Saturn at Titans distance because Titan is steeling some of Saturn’s residual atmosphere that is past the langrian point between them. Maybe over billions of years Saturn has been steeling Titans atmosphere? The smoking gun here is what is the composition of that gas cloud circling Saturn?<br /><br />If someone knows the most current accepted answer to this, let me know and supply me with the reference or link.<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[remcook]

hate to disappoint you, but Saturn is 95 times as heavy as the Earth.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">hate to disappoint you, but Saturn is 95 times as heavy as the Earth. <font color="white"><br /><br />Weight is dependant on gravity. What you may have meant was that Saturn has 95.2 times more mass than earth. There is a big difference between Mass and a force - weight. Mass is different yet it is proportional to its weight.<br /><br />Saturn is primarily made out of Helium and Hydrogen, very low on the atomic weight, therefore even though it is much bigger than the earth it gravitational field is only slightly higher than Earths.<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

<i>Weight is dependant on gravity.</i><br /><br />But gravity is dependant on mass. The more massive something is the greater its graviational field gradient. So the earth would become a perminent moon of Saturn because Saturn has more mass then Earth. <br /><br />Edit: Not to say the Earth wouldn't have an effect on Saturn...density DOES play a role.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">But gravity is dependant on mass. The more massive something is the greater its graviational field gradient. So the earth would become a perminent moon of Saturn because Saturn has more mass then Earth. <font color="white"><br /><br />Sorry but that is not necessarily true. Although I would agree with you that Saturn would at first be the dominant force between the two. Now I do see a way that the curvature of space time would be extended out more because of the mass distribution is much greater on Saturn than earths. This is a very interesting discussion, one that may have been gone over before at great depth. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Saturn is primarily made out of Helium and Hydrogen, very low on the atomic weight, therefore even though it is much bigger than the earth it gravitational field is only slightly higher than Earths. <br /><br /><br /></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

Ok....but its still 95 times more massive. And that means means its gravitational field is more outreaching even though its only slightly more pronounced. It's just not as steep a gravitational gradient as earth's gravitational field. Therefore I still don't think earth would have as much impact on earth as the other way around.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">And that means means its gravitational field is more outreaching even though its only slightly more pronounced.<br /><br /><font color="white">I thought how that may occur and went back to edit my post before you responded and I came to the same conclusion as you just stated above. Very interesting I would like to see some calculations on this..</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[remcook]

more noise? there seems to be a lot.<br /><br />http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/raw-images-details.cfm?feiImageID=7202<br /><br />why is this so different for every image? (there are few specks on one and then a lot on the other)<br /><br />I now see that most noise is there when the UV1 and CL2 filters are used.<br />

 

[volcanopele2]

"more noise? there seems to be a lot.<br /><br />http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/raw-images-details.cfm?feiImageID=7202<br /><br />why is this so different for every image? (there are few specks on one and then a lot on the other)<br /><br />I now see that most noise is there when the UV1 and CL2 filters are used. "<br /><br />It depends on the exposure time. The longer the exposure time, the more cosmit ray hits can accumulate on the CCD during the exposure.

 

[silylene old]

The planet and the moon orbit along circles around their common center of gravity.<br />R = distance between the planet and the moon<br />m1 = mass of planet<br />m2 = mass of moon<br />M = m1 + m2<br /><br />The distances from the center of gravity are equal to:<br />r1 = R m2 / M <br />r2 = R m1 / M <br />M = m1 + m2 <br /><br />Mearth = 5.98E24 kg<br />Msaturn = 5.688E26 kg<br />Mtitan = 1.3455E23 kg<br />Mmoon = 7.349E22 kg<br />mean radius-earth = 6378 km<br />mean radius-saturn = 60268 km<br /><br />Now we can calculate some interesting stuff!<br /><br /><i>Earth-moon system</i><br />Co-orbital point is 4668 km from the center of the earth.<br />Co-orbital point is 70% of the distance from the center of the earth to its surface.<br /><br /><i>Saturn-Titan system</i><br />Co-orbital point is 289 km from the center of Saturn.<br />Co-orbital point is 0.5% of the distance from the center of Saturn to its surface.<br /><br /><i>Saturn-Earth hypothetical system, orbiting the same distance as Titan</i><br />Co-orbital point is 12712 km from the center of Saturn.<br />Co-orbital point is 21% of the distance from the center of Saturn to its surface.<br /><br /><i>Conclusion</i><br />The hypothetical system of Earth orbiting Saturn is equivalent to a moon orbiting a planet since the co-orbital center is below the surface of Saturn.<br /><br />In fact the hypothetical Saturn-Earth system is significantly less a "double-planet" system than Earth-Moon, since the co-orbital points are respectively only 21% of the distance from Saturn's center, as opposed to 70% from the Earth's center.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[Leovinus]

On the other hand, you could say that the co-orbital point of the Earth Saturn system would lie in Saturn's atmosphere whereas it lies in bedrock in the Earth Moon system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Thanks, silylene, for the number crunching. I was getting really confused up to that point!<br /><br /><i>"On the other hand, you could say that the co-orbital point of the Earth Saturn system would lie in Saturn's atmosphere..."</i> -- Leovinus<br /><br />Who knows what lies 21% of the way from Saturn's center to its surface? Maybe solid, maybe liquid.<br /><br />One view from this website:http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/arny/instructor/graphics/ch09/0911.html<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[titanian]

I didn't know very well the celestial mechanics but I had observed that the equatorial surface gravity of Saturn was 9.05 compared to 9.78 for Earth.So, I had the idea that Saturn could become a satellite of planet Earth in the previous configuration.Nevertheless, as I don't know the relationship between mass, density and gravity, I forgot that the mass of Saturn is largely higher than that of Earth.I note that this has lead to an interesting dicussion with new ideas and notably the analysis of rlb2 for the potential exchange of matter and energy between the very dense Earth and the not so dense Saturn.<br />Thank you to Silyvene for the demonstration that I'm going to analyse now and try to apply to Uranus and Neptune as rlb2 suggested.Last remark, we could also try to figure out the consequences of the gravitational configuration between Pluto and Charon which are almost the same size.

 

[silylene old]

Please do calculate the Pluto-Charon system! I am betting that the co-orbital point for Pluto-Charon system is significantly above the surface of Pluto. If so, this would be (by my definition) a double planet system, not a planet-moon system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[rlb2]

Good job. <br /><br />Here is another logical explanation one could use to explain that Earth would become a moon of Saturn. I thought of this last night. Going back to Newton and his laws of gravitation, gravity abides by the inverse square law. Earth radius is 12,756 K Saturn’s is 120,536 K. Earths and Saturn gravity is taken at its so called surface. I don't know exactly where they claim that is on Saturn. Because of Earths and Saturn’s gravitation at its surface is about the same if you took a reading of Saturn’s gravitation at the same distance from Saturn's radius as Earths then gravity would be approximately 100 (10^2) times stronger on Saturn at that distance from its center of gravity then it would be on Earth at sea level. Going strictly by gravity is indeed the wrong thing to do. This is only based on my asumption that Saturn gravity is taken close to its liquid hydrogen -- sea level.<br /><br />This is just a hypothetical reasoning because the mass above your reading from the center of gravity would have a pull on you to, counteracting against the pull from the center of gravity. This only helps to explain that Saturn would indeed be the dominant one for a long time. <br /><br />Now Earth in the mean time could be steeling Saturn’s atmosphere away from it as it orbited Saturn. It would be cold enough for Earth to retain hydrogen and helium gas, lower kinetic energy less than escape velocity. I’m curious if what we had there before may have been two smaller versions of gas giants, Titan and Saturn, Saturn won the tug of war with Titans atmosphere and slowly made it its own. So at one time Saturn and Titan may have been more of a double planets system than they are today. There is a ring of methane gas around Saturn at Titan distance from Saturn. If there isn’t any volcanoes on Titan than maybe this is another hypothesis to look at.<br /><br />This is just a thought and not to be confused with reality....<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[titanian]

Continuing the reasoning on what would happen if Earth was at the same place as Titan, I have the same position as rlb2.Earth would certainly be very different in terms of size and composition.The mean temperature at the surface of a dark body at this distance from the Sun is around -180°c ( -292°F). As a result,no liquid water , rather water ice or frozen carbon dioxide and no carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.The planet would certainly appear larger from outer space due to the depth of the atmosphere.Thanks to the cold temperatures (combined with a high gravity), the atmosphere could retain lighter molecules like hydrogen and helium as said rlb2.The lower atmosphere may be composed of nitrogen while the upper atmosphere would comprise a layer of hydrogen and helium ( heavier molecules below and lighter molecules above). At the end of the day,Earth might be similar to a gas giant and would gain weight so that Saturn could become a satellite of planet Earth.<br />Continuing the reasoning on the exchange of matter and energy between a planet and its moon, I had imagined long ago that there could be a gas channel between Pluto and Charon because of the gravitational tug of war.

 

[silylene old]

rlb2's hypothesis would be much more likely if the hypothetical earth-like moon orbiting Saturn was a lot closer to Saturn than Titan's orbit.<br /><br />For more fun, imagine that Titan was also orbiting Saturn too, at the correct resonance distance.<br /><br />Now you would have the opportunity for tidal warming of both the hypothetical earth-like moon, and Titan! Two warm moons orbiting Saturn - now that would be something. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[rlb2]

The conduit for striping away Titans atmosphere could well be Saturn’s magnetic field. They haven't found a magnetic field on Titan yet. Saturn’s magnetosphere extends out past Titan and the plasma trapped there is interacting with Titans atmosphere. This would result in collisions that would increase the kinetic energy of the particles trapped there giving them enough speed to escape Titans gravitational field. Indeed the Magnetic field would be the trump card in all this. <br /><br />Earth would take its magnetic field with it if it orbited Saturn thus protecting it from Saturn’s magnetic field. There would be stronger tidal forces from Saturn then they are from the moon thus heating things up a bit as -silylene says, but at that orbital distance not enough that would make up the difference of the solar energy that Earth is now enjoying. These Tidal forces would increase the size of Earths heated core dynamo, giving Earth an even stronger magnetic field. <br /><br />The increase in the tidal forces on Saturn from its new moon would also increase Saturn’s magnetic field. Eventually Saturn may win out by slowing Earths rotation down therefore decreasing the Earths magnetic dynamo resulting in a slow deterioration of its magnetic field. Titan day is 16 Earths days, in other words it rotates on its axis once every 16 Earth days.<br /><br />This may have happened to all the rest of the planet size moons orbiting a gas giant. The bigger kid on the block gets all the food by bullying all the smaller kids and steeling there atmosphere away from them. The only thing they would have to protect themselves from this happening would be a strong enough global magnetic field. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[thalion]

Earth could not be in Titan's position. Titan's icy composition is what it is because of both where Saturn formed, and where Titan formed around Saturn. A massive silicate satellite with an iron-nickel core around Saturn probably wouldn't develop.<br /><br />That said, if Earth suddenly replaced Titan, the planet would become a frozen, barren wasteland. Earth's atmosphere is very poor in the hydrocarbons that given Titan its haze, so it would probably have a clear, dense nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere, over a surface of dry ice overlaying water ice. The oceans would probably be frozen to a great depth, maybe even almost to the bottom, but there would probably be enough volcanic activity to keep a liquid layer with life going. Life living deep underground would also get along fine. It would be an interesting place.

 

[titanian]

The planet and the moon orbit along circles around their common center of gravity. <br />R = distance between the planet and the moon <br />m1 = mass of planet <br />m2 = mass of moon <br />M = m1 + m2 <br /><br />The distances from the center of gravity are equal to: <br />r1 = R m2 / M <br />r2 = R m1 / M <br />M = m1 + m2 <br /><br /><br />Pluto mass:1.29e+22<br />Charon mass:1.77e+21<br />Distance:19000km<br />radius of Pluto:1160 km<br />radius of Charon:595 km<br />You're right!the common center of gravity of the Pluto Charon system is outside the sphere of Pluto.<br />r1=R m2/M<br />r1= 19000 * 1.77e+21 / (1.29e+22 + 1.77 e+21 )<br />r1=2292 km from the center<br />The common center of gravity is roughly 2292 km from the center of Pluto.It can be considered a double planet as you say.