Titan Question(s)

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one_billy

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If you moved Titan towards Saturn.Would it heat up?<br />How far in could you move it.Before Saturn's gravity got it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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newtonian

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One_billy - Sorry it took so long for someone to answer. I have been busy doing gardening during south Louisiana's recent record warmth (after the snow!).<br /><br />First - we could not move Titan significantly, though God could.<br /><br />Second - Perhaps Titan might be warmer in a closer orbit through tidal interactions. It wouldn't take much to rise above 95 degrees Kelvin! That is mighty cold!<br /><br />Saturn also has a powerful magnetic field which could heat Titan through interactions.<br /><br />Third - Saturn's gravity does have Titan. I assume you mean a decaying orbit to collision with Saturn? However, I believe that conservation of angular momentum would cause a more rapid revolution around Saturn, and it is this critical revolution speed compared with orbital distance that would determine stability of orbit.<br /><br />Distance alone does not determine a stable orbit.
 
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mooware

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If it were possible to move Titan to a closer orbit by whatever means. It likely would not warm up appreciably. However, even if it did, Titan would be more irradiated than it currently is. So, if temperatures became sufficient to favor primordial life, that life would likely be sterilized before it had a chance to even consider taking hold.<br /><br />imho anyway<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
 
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CalliArcale

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Distance alone does not determine a stable orbit.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />What about the Roche Limit? I thought there was a minimum altitude for an orbit to be stable over time, or tidal interactions will cause the orbiting body to fall. For instance, I have read that Saturn's rings and several of its moons are within the Roche Limit, and thus are doomed. I am no expert and certainly no math whiz, so I don't know what the Roche Limit for Saturn is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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thalion

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Distance is a major, but not sole determinant of stability. An orbit that is too heavily perturbed by the Sun, at the edge of a planet's Hill Sphere will eventually be wrenched free of the planet.<br /><br />However, in Titan's case its distance from Saturn has no bearing on its temperature. Saturn gives off some heat, but certainly not enough to warm any of its moons or rings. The volcanic activity mentioned is less a result of distance and more a result of gravitational interactions and orbital resonances among the moons which could distort each others' orbits, resulting in tidal stretching. This is the case with Io and Europa at Jupiter.<br /><br />Theoretically, any body inside the Roche Limit could be torn apart; this is what would happen to Saturn if Titan moved too close. However, this only applies to objects that are held together primarily by their own gravity--large, spherical moons like Rhea, Dione, Titan, etc.--rather than small bodies held together primarily by electrostatic forces, like Pan, Prometheus, Janus, and other close-in moonlets.<br /><br />By the way, William K. Hartmann's excellent <i>Moon and Planets</i> (fourth ed.: Wadsworth, 1999) gives a basic formula for calculating the Roche Limit for objects "larger than about 40 km in diameter, orbiting icy or stony bodies of modest strength" (p. 60):<br /><br />1.38 * (rho <i>M</i> / rho <i>m</i>)^.33 * R, where:<br /><br />rho <i>M</i> is the density of the primary<br />rho <i>m</i> is the density of the secondary (moon)<br />R is the radius of the primary<br /><br />The answer will be in radii of the primary.
 
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CalliArcale

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Cool! Thanks for edjumacating me, Thalion! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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one_billy

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Thanks it was worth the wait<br />I’m no genius Far from it. But I have an inquisitive mind. <br />I’m thinking we’ve found other gas giant planets beyond our solar system. Do any of these bodies have moons? How would we find them? Same way we found the giant? Could the conditions exist between a gas giant, a moon and companion star to form life? Or any other number of scenarios where you have a giant and a moon. If life were to evolve in this fashion, I think it would be fascinating. Imagine the vista from the surface. So there, I’ve kicked the door open on this one. <br /> <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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newtonian

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one_billy - I also have an inquisitive mind. Interesting questions.<br /><br />Steve is correct on the extrasolar gas giant planets.<br /><br />I believe in creation, not chemical evolution. So, the point I will address would be could life be formed in such an environment, and then could life be sustained?<br /><br />I assume you are talking about life as we know it: carbon based and matter based.<br /><br />Other forms of life are possible, btw. <br /><br />Titan is a moon revolving around a gas giant - are you familiar with the speculations on whether building blocks of life could spontaneously generate on Titan?<br /><br />To really understand the possibilities, you need to actually consider the chemistry- for example, potential chemical pathways required to create life.<br /><br />However, note that scientists have not yet been able to create life, even though they are intelligent creators.<br /><br />I am intending to post on that another time.<br />Please note also that while Titan has organic chemistry going on, that the definition for organic that is being used is very broad - it simply means chemistry involving the element carbon and its various compounds. <br /><br />There is a big difference between biochemistry and non-living organic chemistry, because the former is being informationally directed by a complex informational template(s) and therefore results in informational molecules; the latter results in statistical molecules with very little information.<br /><br />The divisions illustrated well by the difference between a dead cell and a living cell. Or, simply: the difference between life and death.
 
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CalliArcale

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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Edjumeting?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Sorry, alokmohan. Sometimes I forget that not everybody here speaks English as their first language.<br /><br />I was deliberately misspelling "educating" for comic effect. The joke is that if I were really educated, I'd be smart enough to spell it right! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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