Trouble on Mars.

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Oct 29, 2020
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How long after establishing reasonably populated but different national communities will we start arguing with each other and politics poisens the atmosphere?
 

Wolfshadw

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I seem to remember something about American history. Something about ships sailing to the "New World" and colonies. One would hope that we've learned from history and not repeat it.

-Wolf sends
 
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rod

Oct 22, 2019
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In post #3 is Wolfshadw suggesting that prior to Christopher Columbus and ships coming to the "New World", the earth had peace and joy, and warfare among nations arose only since Columbus visit to the "New World"?
 

Wolfshadw

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In post #3 is Wolfshadw suggesting that prior to Christopher Columbus and ships coming to the "New World", the earth had peace and joy, and warfare among nations arose only since Columbus visit to the "New World"?
Of course, I'm not suggesting that. I was only providing one example. One I have a fervent wish we do not repeat.

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rod

Oct 22, 2019
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Okay Wolfshadw in post #5. Why is your example so fervent? For example what makes your example more *fervent* that should not be repeated compared to Pharaoh Tutmoses III invasions into Canaan and conquest and warfare documented when taking over Canaan in the ancient world?
 

Wolfshadw

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Okay Wolfshadw in post #5. Why is your example so fervent? For example what makes your example more *fervent* that should not be repeated compared to Pharaoh Tutmoses III invasions into Canaan and conquest and warfare documented when taking over Canaan in the ancient world?
Because it is the one example I am most familiar with. I'm not exactly a student of world history.

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rod

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Wolfshadw in post #7, thanks for the answer. In my personal studies of ancient history, when I compare with *Something about ships sailing to the "New World" and colonies*, this history gave birth to the US Constitution and US Bill of Rights. When I compare to the types of government that existed before Christopher Columbus like human sacrifice or the laws of Pharaoh, or the laws seen in the Amarna Letters (382 documented and translated), I am grateful for those ships who came here to the New World and the emergence of a new government with different values and teachings on liberty than what existed before.
 

Wolfshadw

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I certainly agree with your point about the type of government that eventually evolved. but it took 291 years; the last eight in war, from the time Columbus landed for that government to come into being. It is my hope that if/when the Mars colonies have grown large enough to govern themselves, those on Earth allow them to without all the fuss.

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Mar 5, 2020
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I think that the “trouble” will be long gone before the Martian Colonies exist.

You know what the difference is between Cold War Russian and American propaganda?

The Russians never believed their own propaganda.

Planetary defense against interstellar asteroids. The first (sane) large scale actions in space will be to create a physical means for preventing any future interruption of human civilization by asteroids.

The Imperial war machine is already staking a claim with the “Space Force”. Limited military capabilities to protects one’s interests are one thing, a vehicle for space dominance is quite another.

The asteroids will be colonized long before Mars. Will the militarily capable Space Force patrol the asteroids? Will they enforce corporate property rights like the English East India Company did in America and India? At some point the bean counters on Earth will put corporate interests before the colonist’s interests and the Space Force will become the Pinkerton and National Guard strike breakers.

A military force in space is a tool for coercion and domination. America’s masters do not want to compete fairly in space, they want a monopoly. Every cent spent in space to defend against American imperialism is one that won’t be spent on Planetary Defense.

The empire will fall long before the Martian colonies are established.

America will no longer be defined by the empire.
 
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Perhaps the advantage Mars has is that there is no apparent reason, IMO, that would prvent the best of science to be implemented in our planet's travels to Mars. If a mountain of gold, or something unusual is found, then perhaps there would be more incentive for certain rich risk-takers to cut corners that could potentially bring harm to the planet, but I doubt the current risk-takers fit that profile where scientific authority is ignored.
 
Dec 29, 2019
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Wasn't Columbus the fellow who found most "Indians" taken captive for the purpose of forced labour made poor slaves, but the young girls could be sold profitably as sex slaves? Most disease introduction may have been accident, but some was deliberate. Sure, societies could be brutal in the Americas - but some more so than others. Didn't some early N. American colonists get generous help in times of desperation?

It is my hope that if/when the Mars colonies have grown large enough to govern themselves, those on Earth allow them to without all the fuss.
Should unpaid debts to the Earth investors and equipment suppliers be allowed to be written off as part of this bid for self rule? Sure, all the fictional stories of space colonies in revolt start with being cruelly treated by a distant, uncaring Earth Tyranny, making it a noble struggle for Liberty and Justice... but I doubt that will be the case. Watching profits go to distant financiers, who are oddly reluctant to allow those debts and obligations to go unpaid, may be very frustrating but I don't think America would have been a failed state or their European settler populations oppressed had that Revolution not occur. Canada did alright after all.

So, should those who support continuing the status quo be - like Loyalists after the American Revolution - declared traitors (neatly inverting the reality that Revolutionaries were the traitors), stripped of property and forced to flee or stay and be brutalised?
 
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Mar 5, 2020
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the current risk-takers fit that profile where scientific authority is ignored.
Robber Barons and Oligarchs are risk takers now? You could write for the Wall Street Journal. You also assume that the "scientific authority" is actually independent of political and economic domination.

the reality that Revolutionaries were the traitors
Revolutionaries are traitors? Traitors to whom? How long have you identified yourself with tyrants 😊.
 
Dec 29, 2019
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Insurrection against legal authority is always traitorous - that's just the way it is. Claiming after that it was not is just a fringe benefit of winning.

Was Britain especially tyrannical for the times? Like adding a right to insurrection in the new constitution - because it was criminal and they clearly knew it - the claim that it was all about overthrowing tyranny seems like a post-facto justification. I would think the indigenous nations that the settlers wanted to invade and occupy, that the Tyrants were preventing - as if heathen savages should have any rights to sovereignty - might have disagreed that what resulted was an end to tyranny. I imagine all the slaves were equally mystified on that score.
 
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rod

Oct 22, 2019
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FYI. Not sure what is the focus of this discussion now. Post #12 and #14 referenced *slaves* three times. I checked the Holy Quran (114 Surahs or chapters). Depending upon the English version, you can find more than 100 references to slaves as well as references to young girls as sex slaves. The 382 Amarna Letters, contain at least a dozen references to slaves including young girl sex slaves. The Ancient Near East texts published contain more than 350 references to slaves (including their execution) as well as young girl sex slaves. I can do this because I have these texts in my electronic library, Logos 9. It is interesting to compare the Old World order and the New World order that developed and arose in history. Some very stark differences appear.
 
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Codependency resulting from interwoven economic and supply chains will make pragmatism ascendant over ideological brainwashing. Each “national” colony will have a specialized role in the Martian economy since it would be far too expensive for every colony to be self sufficient.

The ideological and political blinders accepted and proselytized on Earth would be plainly seen as the madness they are on Mars.

Blowing a 1 meter hole in a secret policemen’s barracks could also do wonders to clear the air.

Any military occupying force would also have supply issues. My bad, I gave you a bottle of nitrogen instead of oxygen. What was I thinking? Do you know what a bottle of nitrogen is worth on Mars?
 
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