Vast ice at Medusa Fossae?

[docm]

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12866<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><b>Vast amount of water ice may lie on Martian equator</b><br /><br />Some puzzling land formations on Mars's equator could be huge glacier-like deposits of frozen water, new radar observations suggest. The material's radar properties might be explained by unusually porous rocky material instead, but if it is water it would represent a huge amount – as much as a polar ice cap contains, providing a potential water source for future human explorers.<br /><br />Scientists have puzzled for decades over a group of mound-like structures at Mars's equator called the Medusa Fossae Formation. A variety of explanations have been offered, including that they are piles of volcanic ash, and that they are glacier-like structures made mostly of water ice.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Now, radar sounding has probed the material for the first time 2.5 kilometres below its surface. The way the radio waves interact with the material suggests that it must be either ice or an extremely porous rocky material.<br /><br />Thomas Watters of the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC, US, led a team that probed the material with a ground-penetrating radar instrument called MARSIS (Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionosphere Sounding) on Europe's Mars Express spacecraft.<br /><br /><b>In terms of its radar properties, the Medusae Fossae Formation material is indistinguishable from the Mars polar layered deposits, which are nearly pure water ice, Watters says. If they are water, the deposits would increase the amount of known water on Mars by 36%, an amount equal to all the water locked in Mars's south polar cap.</b></font><br /><br /><b>Dust cover</b><br /><br />However, the possibility remains that the material could be made of a very fluffy, porous material, like volcanic ash. If it is some</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Thanks docm,<br /><br />Fascinating article.<br /><br />It certainly does appear glacial under the dust. The form is just right.<br /><br />Perhaps a site for a future lander?<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Als the area to be imaged by HiRISE, to determine any high albedo outcrops, & / or glacial<br />flow & / or cryovolcanic type teatures.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">Possible targets could include fissures, slope failures and recent impact craters to expose a water signal.</font><br /><br />I don't think that will work. Any exposed ice surfaces will shortly sublimate away, until they are covered up by dust again.

 

[vandivx]

it looks as if we will know water only after we bathe in it or ice after we skate on it LOL<br /><br />so much for radars and spectra and all that, my sceptic antenae as to all this planetary research always go up after reading about one more probings that don't really tell us what is there, probably when somebody lands there we still won't know, same with all those various markings and unusual features on surface like those dark streaks (that have their own thread here), we won't know much better even after we walk over them<br /><br />I know one thing I wouldn't fly out there without required supply of water in bottles for the whole trip<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>so much for radars and spectra and all that, my sceptic antenae as to all this planetary research always go up after reading about one more probings that don't really tell us what is there, probably when somebody lands there we still won't know, same with all those various markings and unusual features on surface like those dark streaks (that have their own thread here), we won't know much better even after we walk over them.</i><br /><br />Answering these questions are hard without ground truth. But ground truth on Mars is difficult to come by, compared with orbital remote sensing data with can be collected very quickly. Sometimes even ground truth can simply confuse things more.<br /><br />But these results show that the MFF is thick, up to 2.5 km where it has been measured. That is no trivial surface unit.<br /><br />Some possibilities can be ruled out by these results. Whatever makes up the MFF is low density, but does not seem to compact under loading. So that seems to rule out simple volcanic ash or aeolian dust, as previously thought. The results are consistent with ice, but we no there is no ice at the surface at these latitudes, so it must be buried under surface dust, perhaps a residue left behind by sublimation of the ice.<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEM0J2FWB8F_0.html<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon, that was take on it.<br /><br />Any ice MUST be under dust. At that latitude it would not last for long.<br /><br />I suggested also HiRISE observations to seek out possible cryovolcanics here, as<br />impacts could penetrate the dust layer, exposing the ice.<br /><br />As borman pointed out, CRISM would be required to confirm.<br /><br />Mars Odyssey THEMIS observation.<br /><br />MRO HiRISE here, here & here.<br /><br />Geological Map of Medusae Fossae.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew If the ice has more than a mm of dust CRISM, OMEGA, and the rest of the sectometers won't see it. If it is more than a metre down, the various neutron detectors won't see it, more than a couple of m the measurement of thermal intertia using night time/day time IR from MO won't work. Only radar can work at those depths from orbit.<br /><br />Even ground truth would be difficult without a medium capacity field drill rig, unless you could get to the bottom of a really reent crater and dig.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />I did not realise it was that difficult. I was aware that only a little covering was <br />enough to hide the H20 signature, but NOT that little material.<br /><br />As you say, it seems the best way is to land a craft there & drill down.<br /><br />I suggested HiRISE as that can image forms, surface features that may resemble <br />dust hidden glacial or permafrost type features, though HiRISE cannot determine the composition.<br /><br />A lander with cameras, a drill, specrtometers & a seismometer is required.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

thx for the link, the high res pic is awsome, even if the colors are false and not sure what the 3d rendering came from, maybe also from those radar scan of the surface which was then tilted for side view by processing? it looks like there is volcano there too, would make good wallpaper <br /><br />the MMF deposits I suppose are those green areas located in the blue lowland area just before rising highlands to the left...<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You're welcome! The 3D picture is the MOLA DEM, I am pretty sure. To be honest, I am not quite sure what is and is not MFF in the section. Come too that, I still have trouble with being able to recognise what is, and is not MFF in any image! I will try an get the science paper next week - Wednesday or Thursday, and so will have some more specifics.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew. the dust cover has got to be continous of course. But this is wht any mineral map or Mars or earth based on remote sensing tends to be very patchy, because of the absence of clear singals in many areas.<br /><br />One problem with the ice hypothesis for the MFF is tha absence of any thermokarst features indicating loss of ice, or gullies in the walls of craters excavated into it. The MFF is easily eroded into yardangs, indicating that it is a soft, fine-grained material, which is which is why ash and dust have been suggested.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<A lander with cameras, a drill, specrtometers & a seismometer is required.><br /><br />Or it could be a promising location for a Thor impactor mission!

 

[dragon04]

I suppose it would be too much to ask for an impactor a couple dozens of meters across in a MCO to hit where we want to investigate....<br /><br />A little serendipity would be sweet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[docm]

They could always wait for Ares V and send one of those MOP 30,000 lb bunker-busters + an observer satellite. It'll supposedly penetrate 200+ feet of reinforced concrete, so permafrost shouldn't be too big a problem. <br /><br />Hell....I'll bet you could even convince Jamie Hyneman to go for the ride as observer <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Andrew and Jon,<br /><br />If similar areas exist on Ceres (ice buried under not-so-thick regolith or carbonaceous crust), will Dawn have the capability to detect it? In other words, is there an equivalent (even less performing) of MARSIS?<br /><br />Regards.

 

[franontanaya]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I'll bet you could even convince Jamie Hyneman to go for the ride as observer<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Hahah... "Houston, er... it works". He can check too if martians are green and if men come from there.<br /><br />Anyway, couldn't they predict any minimal difference in the local atmosphere composition on a mass of dust over ice versus a mass of dust over ash? <br /><br />Maybe it is frozen ash, being a small amount of ice the reason for ash not compacting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Joel, <br /><br />I have posted an answer of hopefully required intelligence that your question merits,<br />on the DAWN thread.<br /><br />I can see a parellel between 1 Ceres & Medusae Fossae on Mars in many respects, is dust<br />& other contaminents hiding huge quantities of ice?<br /><br />So can see where your reasoning comes from.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi FranOntanaya,<br /><br />I wonder if the Martian atmosphere is too mobile? I can see where you are coming from though.<br /><br />Unless there are outgassings / cryovolcanism in process in Medusae Fossae??<br /><br />If so, than any local variations in composition of the atmosphere, should be detectable.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

As far as parallel is concerned, we have here some places like say, Sahara.<br />With surface conditions not allowing persistance of liquid water, and yet huge quantities of liquid water in the underground...<br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

The humidity should be higher. I am not sure if present satellites can detect this, but future ones, such as the Mars Scout 2011 proposal, should be able to. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>