Venus at one AU

[cookie_thief]

<br /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />

 

[strandedonearth]

Step 1: Solar shades to block the sun; the atmosphere will freeze out<br /><br />Step 2: Aim concentrated sunlight at the edge of the Venusian disk to use the photo-pressure to spin up the planet, possibly also moving the orbit outward. Efficiency could be gained by preparing the cooled surface with a "track" around the equator to make maximum use of concentrated sunlight, i.e. carefully aimed buckets of frozen Venusian atmosphere (CO2) would produce more thrust as it vaporized than just random surface vaporization. And just for fun, spin it up in reverse so the sun rises in the west and sets in the east <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Step 3: Adjust the solar shades to allow the right amount of heat, season the new atmosphere appropriately, and serve.<br /><br />

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

Hi Steve, really i think we need to sort out own problems here with our home before we even start thinking about the neigbours. But hey, if we continue to totally screw it up, then yep, lets fix up venus, move it abit closer so we can put up a ladder, and move everyone in <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>

 

[j_crockett]

Venus has a lot of similarities to Earth that are sometimes lost by the other wise glaring facts. As you look at Venus you may find that it is too hot and the atmosphere is 90 times that of earth. But from a mass accounting perspective it is quite similar. <br /><br />Earth has the same amount of CO2. However, on earth the CO2 is in the form of calcite which has precipitated in the oceans forming limestone. Venus has about the same amount of Nitrogen as Earth. And Venus has plenty of O2 (not that we would want to breath it). <br /><br />There may be ways of chemically altering the Venus atmosphere such as dropping a large quantity of calcium of Iron pellets into the atmosphere that would remove large amounts of the CO2; and reduce the heat.<br /><br />The sun shade might help in the short term but keep in mind that if we used a sun shade alone, it would take thousands of years to cool. The planet may be releasing geothermal heat. <br /><br />Do not assume that moving the planet would cool it off <br /><br />Just some ideas<br />

 

[mikejz]

Iron you say? That actaully seems rather resonable. If there were some way to nicely shred astroids we might be in business.

 

[j_crockett]

That is an excellent idea ... <br /><br />Mercury is an excellent source because it has abundant material and solar energy. We would need about a third the number of solar panels on Mercury than we would need on the moon. Plus, it is not really spinning as fast, so the solar electric catapult could be aimed for long periods at Venus. The orbital dynamics need to be figured out because there is no straight shot to Venus from Mercury. Just better and worse launch windows. By the way, Mercury currently has a super thin O2 atmosphere so the extra oxygen is not much of a pollutant. or it could be sold as fuel. <br /><br />as long as the Oxygen is removed abundant Iron, calcium and other metals would quickly react with the atmosphere of Venus to produce minerals such as Calcite, Siderite, Rhodochrosite. These mineral would be fairly stable on the surface of Venus and there formation would remove heat and greenhouse gasses. A manned mission to Venus may be feasible at the highest elevations once half of the atmosphere is precipitated. <br /><br />Still a major undertaking

 

[j_crockett]

I don't think that the terraforming is that much more difficult; Venus vs. Mars. Terraforming is a major undertaking regardless of which planet. In fact I have heard terreforming ideas for Mars that sound more difficult than the one I described for Venus. Mars has some big advantages in that we should have manned exploration missions long before any terraforming takes place. in fact mars could be colonized prior to teraforming. Venus on the other hand, would require partial terraforming prior to the first manned mission. Based on that Mars is probably a better canidate.<br /><br />There are some good reason to teraform Venus: It is the same gravity as earth. It appears to have three "continents". It has no trouble holding on to its own atmosphere. I has quite a bit more surface area that Mars. It has lots of solar energy. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />The bit about the crust turning over every 500 million years...we don't know that. There is alot we dont know about Venus.

 

[jcdenton]

<font color="yellow">There are some good reason to teraform Venus: It is the same gravity as earth. It appears to have three "continents". It has no trouble holding on to its own atmosphere. I has quite a bit more surface area that Mars. It has lots of solar energy.</font><br /><br />The atmospheric pressure on Venus is 90 times greater than that of Earth, it's unlikely we'll ever get a probe on the surface intact.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<i>The atmospheric pressure on Venus is 90 times greater than that of Earth, it's unlikely we'll ever get a probe on the surface intact.</i><br /><br />The Soviets landed several probes intact on Venus in the 1970's and they returned some beautiful pictures (google Venera for many references pictures can be found here http://www.russianspaceweb.com/venera75.html The surface close up looks somewhat like Mars at the pathfinder site actually. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[jcdenton]

<font color="yellow">The Soviets landed several probes intact on Venus in the 1970's and they returned some beautiful pictures</font><br /><br />Except that they were crushed within an hour.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<i>it's unlikely we'll ever get a probe on the surface intact. <br /></i><br /><br />They arrived intact, that was my point.<br /><br />The Soviets claimed the probes failed from the heat, not because of crushing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[jcdenton]

I was responding to the original proposition of terraforming Venus, which would require any surface probes to remain intact.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[j_crockett]

>I was responding to the original proposition of terraforming Venus, which would require any surface probes to be remain intact. <br /><br />Ther have been probes on the surface of Venus, and there will be again. It is a hostile environment but not impossible. <br /><br />Never say never.

 

[jcdenton]

Yes, there will be further missions to Venus, but it's a very different situation from Mars. With Venus the question is, <i>how long before the probe gives in to heat or pressure?</i> With Mars missions there is no such worry as each Vikings 1/2 and Pathfinder are still in one piece, just not transmitting. I imagine the same will be true of Spirit and Opportunity when they each run out of juice.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mikejz]

Actually a long term lander on Venus is not much of a technical issue. It is perfectly possible. I remember reading a paper from JPL on the issue of putting a Lander on Venus that would last over a year. The main issue is the introduction active cooling systems to the lander. (air conditioning!) This however requires a long term power source on the Lander and solar is not an option due to the limited light on the surface. RTGs seem to the option, however because of the high temperature of Venus, they are not very efficient. This drives up costs and complexity. The Soviet landers basically where well insulated against the heat but did not use any active measures to cool the elections. <br /><br />Also, and somewhat funny—while modern elections don’t survive too well in high temperatures, good old Vacuum tubes supposedly are capable of working just fine in the conditions on Venus. So if we designed the probe around 1940’s technology it could happen…<br /><br />

 

[j_crockett]

My original post was discussing terraforming as opposed to moving Venus to one AU. I just thought my idea was more feasible. Whether it is too difficult is for future generations to decide. Keep in mind, today we can't put a man in orbit, much less any of the rest of these ideas on this board.

 

[mcbethcg]

Human beings can survive at 69 atmospheres, with helium/oxygen air mixtures on deep dives in the sea.<br /><br />I think if venus were cooled via orbiting sun shades, some of the atmospheric gasses would precipitate out, leaving a tolerable pressure- we only need to get from 90 atmospheres to 60.<br /><br />If earth was at 600 degrees, we would have much higher atmospheric pressure as well, since all the water in the oceans would be vaporized and part of the atmosphere.

 

[j_crockett]

Currently the atmosphere is about 90 bars at the surface<br />On the "continents" it is about 80 bars<br />Here is the breakout:<br />95% CO2<br />3% N<br />1%O2<br />small amounts of S, H2O, Ar, and Ne<br /><br />If we precipitated all of the CO2 the atmosphere would be 3 or 4 bars 75%N, 20%O and 5% other elements.<br /><br />Sound familiar?

 

[spaceman186000mps]

Venus is the only planet in the solar syatem that rotates retrograde.<br />What I'm saying is that if it were possible to speed up it's rotation would we first have to reverse the direction it rotates?<br />Another weird fact about venus is that when venus passes earth in their closest opposition venus always presents the same face toward earth?<br />What cause this?<br />Even at closest approach they are never closer than 26 million miles apart. <br />On earth a one inch square column of atmosphere weighs over 29 pounds. So on venus a one inch column of atmosphere would weigh approximately 2610 pounds at 90 atmospheres. That's a lot of pressure and heat.<br />If I somehow had a magic spacesuit and stood on venus the sun would rise very slowly in the west and take about 113 earth days to cross the sky and set very slowly in the east. <br />But just imagine the rich oil and diamond deposits that must exist below the surface in that extreme pressure cooker environment.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">70 percent of novel proceeds </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.trafford.com/06-1593</font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff"> are donated to </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.caringbridge.org</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[cookie_thief]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> . . .would we first have to reverse the direction it rotates?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Not really. All we have to do is flip the planet upside down and, voila, it's spinning the right way! And whatever technology we end up using to accomplish this feat will certainly have no problem speeding up its rotation. Hypothetically speaking of course. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[spaceman186000mps]

Ok I'm with you on all that and I realize we are only speaking hypothetically, but just bear with me as I set up this scenario about venus and earths present situation.<br /><br />Presently , as if we were looking down from above the earths north magnetic pole from a position mid way above and between earth and venus as venus slowly catches up to earth on earths slower outside orbit.<br /><br /><br />Now ... My first questions are this... <br /> If we are looking down on earths north pole, are we also looking down at the north pole of venus or is it presently already flipped upside down and or therefore are we really actually looking down at the south magnetic pole of venus??? <br /><br />My next question is this. <br /> If we are then indeed already looking at the south pole of a planet venus, that has for some reason in the past flipped upside down, then what possible magnetic relationships between the two almost equal mass planet magnets is it, that causes venus to always present the same slow retrograde rotation face toward earth as venus overtakes earth at closest opposition ??? <br /><br />...As earth spins on its axis in a counter clockwise direction approx. 250 times, venus spins slowly clockwise or westward only once on its axis.<br />Now what has me confused is,.. if venus and earth never get closer than 26 million miles or approx. 104 times the distance the moon is from the earth. <br />Earths moon is indeed unique and weird to the inner solar system. <br /><br />Is it the fact that the earth does indeed have this unique moon possibly a reason for some unknown magnetic relationship between venus and earth that causes earth(and the moon) to repel or get a push off venus as they pass in opposition..Could it also be this repel push back force from earth and its moon that cause venus to have such a almost perfect circular orbit around the sun???? <br />I didn't mean to change the focus or direction of your interesting post.<br />I'm just curious about the present <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">70 percent of novel proceeds </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.trafford.com/06-1593</font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff"> are donated to </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.caringbridge.org</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[spaceman186000mps]

So basically what I'm asking is this.<br />How would an ordinary earth compass work on the surface of Venus, Mars or the moon??? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">70 percent of novel proceeds </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.trafford.com/06-1593</font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff"> are donated to </font></strong><strong><font size="2" color="#3366ff">www.caringbridge.org</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

Maybe a compass might point at an outcrop with a fossil field? Otherwise, it would be more likely to point at your backpack.<br />