Venus oceans?

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

This article from NewScientist, about possible ancient oceans on Venus, for periods potentially as long as two billion years... http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12769-mineral-may-unlock-secrets-of-venuss-ancient-oceans.html Another surprising and humbling perspective, for a period when Earth had only microbial life, and oceans freezing from time to time up to equator.

logicize · Oct 10, 2007

Here's a strange idea. If we could figure out a way to cool Venus a little I think it would cause a chain reaction and result in a habitable planet. Maybe we just need to give Venus a giant sunscreen for a few years it would cause the atmosphere to condense and rain down on the surface and bring back those oceans.

robnissen · Oct 10, 2007

it would cause the atmosphere to condense and rain down on the surface Uh ...... No. There is virtually no water vapor in Venus' atmosphere. Whereever that water went, it didn't go (or at least remain) in the atmosphere. [edit] What he [Eburacum] said!

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

Given the weather in Yorkshire, I am afraid eburacum45 is expert in rain, and that his opinion prevails in such matters. This being said, the issue of where potential ancient water might have gone is troubling indeed. If this article is to be believed, lava flows might have covered the floor of those ancient oceans. Eruptions with huge release of sulfur hence SO2 might have caught H2O by generating H2SO4 (sulfuric acid). Regards.

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

IIRC the Hydrogen & Oxygen in the H20, were dissacociated & the hydrogen rose & was stripped away by solar radiation, forming a giant hydrogen tail which almost reaches Earth's orbit. Link here. So even if Venus were to cool down, there would not be nearly enough water left to precipitate out to reform the oceans, if they even existed in the first place. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

pyoko · Oct 10, 2007

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I have always wondered why we picked Mars as the first planet humans will visit. Venus is not THAT hot. Is it because cooling technoogy takes more power than heating technology? Pros of Venus: - Gravity and composition simiar to earth - Atmosphere mostly carbon dioxide and thick - Volcanic, probably super rich in minerals close to the surface Cons: - +461C temperature in the sun. Maybe stay in the shade? lol - Sulfuric Acid clouds <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

yevaud · Oct 10, 2007

No, it's because we lack the means with which to affect the atmosphere of Venus and possibly Terraform it. Problem 1: Sheer amount of solar insolation. Solved, let's say by a giant sunscreen. Building it is only the beginning of our problems. It would be a vast and difficult undertaking at the end of a very long supply chain too. Problem 2: Replacing all of the lost H and O. The single way we could do this would be to continually bombard the planet with H2O bearing bodies. And the nearest we could find them would be bits of the Asteroid Belt or outwards as found as crap circling the Gas Giants. Since we can't even get to the Moon easily, this is an insurmountable feat. Problem 3: Venus has no Geomagnetic field worth speaking of. It is, in this regard, as dead as Mars. So the entire process of gas being stripped off by the solar wind would continue even as we worked to Terraform the globe. And afterwards as well (though to a lesser degree as the average global temperature drops). Problem 4: Even with the inclusion of abundant H and O, the atmosphere will still be unbreathable. It would then have to be cracked or converted or sequestered, before we could breath it's atmosphere. See why Mars versus Venus? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

Andrew, Also as a support to the water dissociation asumption, this latter is claimed to explain to higher degree of deuteration on Venus than on Earth (10 times more deuterium).(in your link Andrew) By coincidence there is this article today on SDC about "mystery molecule" http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/071010-venus-molecule.html that may not finally be such a mystery if as the artcle suggests, this is simply CO2 with an oxygen-18 atom instead of oxygen-16. I wonder if a higher concentration of [18O] in depth might also support the dissociation assumption, as H2[18O] is heavier than H2[16O]. Best regards. Joel

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

Yevaud, I would add 5) No spin. Once one gets rid of the greenhouse effect, the atmosphere is made clear, so surface conditions would be again affected heavily by solar illumination. How tthen o re-spin the planet? It is almost still at 117 days Best regards

yevaud · Oct 10, 2007

That's quite true. With the slower rotation, a lot more insolation will be received at the surface. Not certain what the Thermal Equilibrium Temperature for the planet would be, but it's be many C higher than Earth, that's for certain. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

pyoko · Oct 10, 2007

Yes, I see your point. Although I didn't mean terraforming. I meant just landing and leaving. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -pyoko the duck It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. </div>

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Yevaud, Good points. Venus I am afraid will be off limits for quite some time yet. Not only that, we are not sure of the nature of the geological cycles of Cytherean volcanism, do the volcanoes erupt in small fits & starts, & / or is it a major event that covers large areas in lava??? Volcanic resurfacing of Venus does appear to be a favourite explanation, regarding the distribution of the few impact craters there are. What would be good, would be a set of landers, with seismometers, to measure any Venusquakes. Another point is if we can succeed in clearing the clouds, the Sun (which is about twice as strong from Venus than from Earth) is up for a looong time, approx 58 days, rising in the west & setting in the east. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Joel, Also is there not a deuterium discrepancy between comets & the Earth's oceans, thus casting some doubt that all of Earth's water originated in comets? Also is the deuterium remaining in the atmosphere of Venus, similar to the concentration in comets? I believe the 10 x ratio to support that. Could the chemistry on Earth, alter the deuterium ratio (I am not a chemist, so a bit ignorant on this), or does deuterium remain unaffected, no matter what? Or am I just being a bonehead, asking questions like that???? Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Oct 10, 2007

Don't forget surface pressures equivalent to 900 m under water! Mars you can explore in a space suit. Venus you can't. I suspect we will walk on Titan before Venus (we don't need a presure suit on Titan, just a breather helmet and very warm clothing). Maybe had the surface of Venus been only at 100 degrees and two or three atmospheres we would be more interested. It would be great to see if there were any traces of marine deposits under all that lava. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Andrew, I don't know for the deuterium. It's difficult for deuterated water to concentrate by gravity because water is in fact also containing H3O+ and OH- , and so water molecules swap frequently their hydrogen (and deuterium) nuclei. I don't know whether studies have considered the possibility for concentration by gravity on water vapour (less prone to ionic exchanges). Another differentiation mechanism at play may be water freezing, I will PM you about it. Regards.

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Jon, Just a thought (I do get them occassionally), if the hypothesis of periodic lava resurfacing turns out to be correct, would that be as effective at destroying a primordial surface on Venus, as the subduction process on Earth? If so, it would be a terrible shame, because we would never know for sure if Venus did have oceans & marine sediments. I agree with you, that we will have people on Titan before Venus. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

Jon, Unfortunately it seems that only the highlands have been spared the last (or latest?) complete surface renewal about 700 million years ago. This being said may be some part of the current highlands were ancient ocean floors?

yevaud · Oct 10, 2007

...we will have people on Titan before Venus. Probably for a long time. Venus is particularly unappealing for manned surface missions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

h2ouniverse · Oct 10, 2007

On the surface yes. But may be floating cities Ã la Star Wars (episode V) in the 0.5atm, 20Â°C layer of the atmosphere (at about 50, 55 km altitude). Although I cannot see the interest, no gas worth being mined, we have enough CO2 down here.

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Yevaud, I think that to be true. The surface of Venus will be the domain for robotic craft for many years yet. The technological hurdles to overcome, just to even create a suitable Venus suit (crap pun not intended) appears almost insurmountable. Another problem with humans on Venus, is launching humans from the surface, back into space. The surface gravity of Venus is approx 91% that of Earth, so in effect, the launch vehicle would have to be nearly as large & powerful as the one that would have launched from Earth, in effect neccesitating the construction of a "Cape Canaveral" on Venus, just to get our people back. Not to mention as Jon Clarke said, the pressure of that atmosphere to push through. Humans on Venus really does appear to be a non starter at the moment. Even unmanned sample returns, due to the high gravity & surface atmospheric pressure would be very difficult too. Titan with a surface gravity of only 14% of Earth's (weaker than our own moon's 16.7%) & an atmospheric pressure approx 55% greater than Earth's is far, far easier. Also the atmosphere of Titan does not appear to be corrosive, unlike Venus's, so yes people on Titan long, long before Venus. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Oct 10, 2007

Hi Joel, I did think about the possibilty of the highlands being 'islands' in the oceans of lava during the resurfacing events. However, the cratering & general morphologies of these suggests that they too are fairly young. Maybe older than the 500 million to 700 million years, since the last major resurfacing event, but do not appear to be old enough to be of interest, regarding any potential primordial Cytherean oceans. Could be wrong though. Perhaps a lander near the summit of Maxwell Mons may help. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

kmarinas86 · Oct 10, 2007

rain doesn't have to be made of water

qso1 · Oct 11, 2007

logicize: Here's a strange idea. If we could figure out a way to cool Venus a little I think it would cause a chain reaction and result in a habitable planet. Me: Unfortunately, it appears we are still trying to figure out how to warm our own planet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

alokmohan · Oct 11, 2007

Before space age we used to have venusin ocean,asriculture ,men and what not.Now they are proved **** and bull stories.qso is right,we try to measre how hot ir is.

JonClarke · Oct 11, 2007

Hi Andrew I don't think the lava would destroy the sediments, so much as bury them. You would need to look along fold belts, fault scarps, and the larger valley sides. Maybe a airborne sensor (solar powered aircraft?) could pind the spectral signs of sediments. One aditional problem is that the sort of temperatures and pressures would metamorphse most sediments, obliterating sedimentary structures, fossils (if present), and cooking organic matter into graphite. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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