What force drove inflation

[newtonian]

Eric2006 - Hope you have a sense of humor.<br /><br />Concerning what Ether is (no pictures, sorry):<br /><br />Ether does exist.<br /><br />It has been identified with Khirbet el-`Ater (Tel `Eter).<br /><br />As our Bible dictionary notes:<br /><br />A city of the Shephelah in the territory of Judah, but allotted to Simeon. (Jos 15:33, 42; 19:1-9) Today it is generally identified with Khirbet el-`Ater (Tel `Eter), about 1.5 km (1 mi) NW of Beit Jibrin (Eleutheropolis; Bet Guvrin). The account at Joshua 19:7 is nearly parallel with that of 1 Chronicles 4:32, and in this latter text Ether appears to be referred to as Tochen.<br />Some reference works consider that there were two Ethers, that at Joshua 15:42 being located between Libnah and Mareshah (at Khirbet el-`Ater, above mentioned), and the other, referred to at Joshua 19:7, being situated near Ziklag to the S. While the other towns referred to in Joshua 19:7 are all in the S and many of those at Joshua 15:42 are more to the N, it may be noted, nevertheless, that in both texts the town of Ashan is mentioned, so that any clear division becomes difficult.<br /><br />Oops! Wrong Ether!

 

[newtonian]

Eric2006 - If one accelerates too much one can attain a tangent that is totally off the subject:<br /><br />Ether is serious stuff! Especially methyl tertiary butyl ether:<br /><br />“Take as an example the chemical called MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), a fuel additive that enhances combustion and cuts vehicle emissions.<br />Thanks in part to MTBE, the air in many cities in the United States is the cleanest it has been in years. But cleaner air “has come at a price,” reports New Scientist. This is because MTBE is a potential carcinogen, and it has leaked from tens of thousands of underground gasoline storage tanks, often contaminating groundwater. As a result, one town now has to bring in 82 percent of its water from outside, at a cost of $3.5 million a year! New Scientist says that this disaster “could become one of the US’s most serious groundwater pollution crises for years.” - “Awake!,” 12/22/90, p. 5.<br /><br />My next post will be serious btw.

 

[eric2006]

Newtonian,<br /><br />Just because you are a solar system now does not mean you can poke fun of those of lesser mass. I won't be a molecule forever. Just remember that you too were once a particle.<br /><br />I work at a refinery so I am very familiar with MTBE. It's great stuff! Reformulated gasoline is great. Seems to be an northeast coast thing. Out west they like the ethanol instead. I guess when you got nothing but corn around it is an attractive alternative.<br />

 

[newtonian]

Eric 2006 - I will address your posted question next - the briefest answer is that the motion of the fabric of space can exceed the speed of light, while motion on the fabric of space cannot exceed the speed of light - unless, of course, you are a tachyon.<br /><br />Now on the serious existence of Ether proposed by Albert Einstein in the following address - is it OK to post the address rather than just the link?:<br /><br />http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html<br /><br />Ether and the Theory of Relativity<br />Albert Einstein, an address delivered on May 5th, 1920, in the University of Leyden. <br /><br />The original version is available in the Collected Papers of Albert Einstein <br /><br />"HOW does it come about that alongside of the idea of ponderable matter, which is derived by abstraction from everyday life, the physicists set the idea of the existence of another kind of matter, the ether? The explanation is probably to be sought in those phenomena which have given rise to the theory of action at a distance, and in the properties of light which have led to the undulatory theory. Let us devote a little while to the consideration of these two subjects. <br /><br />Outside of physics we know nothing of action at a distance. When we try to connect cause and effect in the experiences which natural objects afford us, it seems at first as if there were no other mutual actions than those of immediate contact, e.g. the communication of motion by impact, push and pull, heating or inducing combustion by means of a flame, etc. It is true that even in everyday experience weight, which is in a sense action at a distance, plays a very important part. But since in daily experience the weight of bodies meets us as something constant, something not linked to any cause which is variable in time or place, we do not in everyday life speculate as to the cause of gravity, and therefore do not become conscious

 

[newtonian]

Eric2006 - I wasn't poking fun at you - just having fun with Ether.<br /><br />Sorry for the "corny" joke.<br /><br />On your last question.<br /><br />Note above that the fabric of space-time can expand FTL (faster than light) and not effect the mass of objects at various reference points on said fabric.<br /><br />One must distinguish the motion on the fabric of space, ordinary motion, from motion due to expansion of the space-time fabric.<br /><br />I have no idea how to do that, btw.<br /><br />Theoretically, motion due to expansion of space would not have the effect that ordinary motion has - which is why, I think, Einstein stated Ether does not have motion in the above address.<br /><br />However, I am not at all sure of this.<br /><br />Ranur's model seems to also indicate that the expanding bubbles would not effect the mass of matter particles.<br /><br />Ranur, You all - OK, is there any effect on the mass of stars, quasars, galaxies which have a significant portion of their motion due to expansion of the fabric of space-time rather than ordianry motion on the fabric of space-time?<br /><br />I.e. - Is my understanding that expansion of the fabric of space does not effect mass correct?<br /><br />

 

[newtonian]

ranur - you posted:<br /><br />"Today most scientsts call the force that now seems to accelerate the initial expansion "dark energy". I have nothing against this name, but it must include more. My hypothesis includes much more than just an expanding force."<br /><br />Yes, a whole process, a whole complex mechanism not simply just a force.<br /><br />While your hypothesis may not be entirely correct, I suspect your considering that a complex system rather than merely a simple force is involved is correct.<br /><br />Scientists often discover unexpected complexity - witness the discoveries about the cell, etc.<br /><br />However, it is much easier to hypothesize a simple theory than a complex one - thank you for trying - I reserve opinion for deeper study.

 

[eric2006]

So you postulate that ether and space/time fabric are totally seperate substances? <br /><br />If I understand correctly the article is saying there may be more than one ether if such a thing exists at all. One applying to magnetism and one to gravity. I guess maybe one for light also?<br /><br />I think it drove Faraday crazy. I believe up until his death he thought that the lines of magnetism were in their own right "something". Like rubber bands streching out.<br /><br />Thanks for the article by the way. I will save it in my favorites.<br /><br />I guess for all practical purposes science just drops the ether all together. Not that it isn't there but more or less we will never know? I guess one would be scoffed at for even bringing up ether in a serious science debate. I always thought of space/time as the ether. Maybe I have been looking at it all wrong. But if ether does exist and space time fabric does exist...how the heck to understand???????? <br /><br />BTW... I see my ignorance has caused us to stray way off of topic. Maybe I shall just lurk for a while as to keep myself from looking like such a dummy. lol

 

[eric2006]

"Note above that the fabric of space-time can expand FTL (faster than light) and not effect the mass of objects at various reference points on said fabric. <br /><br />One must distinguish the motion on the fabric of space, ordinary motion, from motion due to expansion of the space-time fabric. <br /><br />I have no idea how to do that, btw. "<br /><br /><br />Hmmm.....Interesting indeed. That does seem to make sense. Let's take use of some form of matter. If it is traveling at it's normal relative speed/motion (on the fabric of space) and the space fabric itself expanding FTL - I guess that there would not be an mass gain for the matter. I am assuming it would be like riding a train. I am the matter and the train is space/universe. If the train (the vessel -AKA space/time was traveling FTL and I turned on a flash light inside of the train. The light comming from the flashlight inside the train should be traveling at it's normal velocity. I am guessing though since the train would be traveling faster than light and I (the matter inside the train) would start to become infinitely seperated. I don't know. I think I am just making myself look more the fool. I do understand the theory. I am just having a hard time trying to model it. Do you have any good analogies?<br /><br />Don't worry about the ether jokes. I can take it.

 

[eric2006]

"Lightspeed is not relative, simply because it is not a speed. It is a physical relation that is constant (in a vacuum) ".<br /><br />I'm sorry. Yeah, I know what you are saying. I just have a problem from brain to keyboard. I think faster than I type and it gets jumble somewhere in the middle.<br /><br />What I meant was that light always travels at the same speed relative to some observer, no matter what the relative motion of the observer. Thus, light emitted from a moving airplane does not travel with the speed of light plus the speed of the airplane, it travels with the "speed of light", no matter what the speed of the airplane.<br /><br />"The speed of light" being the speed of light in a vacuum. The density of matter between the stars is sufficiently low that the actual speed of light through most of interstellar space is essentially the speed it would have through a vacuum, so I shouldn't make much of an error by ignoring the difference. <br /><br /><br />Sorry, I am not trying to insult your intelligence. I know you know all of this. I am just mearly trying to correct myself. From what I reposted below I don't see how I didn't say that though. I was using time as a reference not the speed. I meant relative in a time comparison not a speed comparison. I should have said time dilation. So to us- it may take a beam of light 4 years to reach us from a distant star. The photon however (if it was self-aware) would have experienced a far less amount of time. <br /><br />----------------------"Also, I agree. Light speed is very strange. I am thinking from a photons point of view that it gets to where it is going instantly. The time it takes it to get there is only relative to our perception. It may take light 4 years to get here from a distant star. But I suppose that is only the way it appears to us. To the photons point of view, it got here as soon as it left."-------------------------<br />

 

[newtonian]

Eric2006 - You asked: <br /><br />Do you have any good analogies?<br /><br />The best way is to start simple, e.g.: <br /><br />(Isaiah 40:22) . . .There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell. . .<br /><br />That is the stretching fabric analogy or illustration - compare the different balloon model or the raisen bread model.<br /><br />Now contrast the local effect of breaking gravitational bonds with a recoil effect:<br /><br />(Job 38:31-33) 31 Can you tie fast the bonds of the Ki´mah constellation, Or can you loosen the very cords of the Ke´sil constellation? 32 Can you bring forth the Maz´za·roth constellation in its appointed time? And as for the Ash constellation alongside its sons, can you conduct them? 33 Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, Or could you put its authority in the earth?<br /><br />[the fact that statutes or laws on the heavens often have authority on earth bodes well for potential observation by scientists of dark energy or whatever force drove inflation and/or drives the more recent acceleration of expansion.]<br /><br />Just as interstellar bonds can be loosened or hold fast, so also intergalactic bonds can be loosened of hold fast.<br /><br />In the stretching fabric analogy, some threads and filaments may break and recoil in the expanding gauze fabric.<br /><br />Such a recoil is happenning locally as the gravitational tug of war between the Great Attractor in the <br />Virgo Supercluster and another Great Attractor in roughly the opposite direction has resulted in Milky Way and many other galaxies on a sort of river in space heading towards the Virgo Great Attractor.<br /><br />In other words, in gravitational tug of war: <br /><br />the rope broke!<br /><br />Now all this is going on with the backdrop being expansion of the fabric of space.<br /><br />The local section is apparent

 

[jatslo]

Gravity