Question will we ever be able to go in a different galaxy?
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Wolfshadw
Moderator
If the human race manages to survive the next 5 billion years, one will come to us. Until then, I find it unlikely that we'll be able to travel that far.
-Wolf sends
-Wolf sends
The likelihood of extragalactic travel will depend on three things, IMO:
1) The ability to safely travel at close to the speed of light.
2) Discovery of some new phenomena that allows travel by tunneling through spacetime or around it. IOW, without the effects of time impacting the travelers, or at least only to a minimal degree.
3) Building starcraft liners that are more attractive a place to live, while traveling for centuries at non-relativistic speeds, than living on Earth, whether due to the spirit of adventure or Earth becoming the riskier alternative, though both may be required.
[Wormholes could be another, I suppose, but hardly practical.]
The first allows what we know of Special Relativity to get us where we want to go in a very reasonable amount of time. At 0.999c, for instance, time is reduced to under 5% of "normal" time (as experienced on Earth). [This, unfortunately, would require incredible energy and shields to protect the ship from anything it hits since the tiniest of an object will have incredible impact energy. ]
The second would be hoping our very limited understanding of what spacetime really is might someday be revealed and we can exploit its properties in beneficial ways. Newton admitted he had no idea what gravity was, though he mastered its behavior. We know more about gravity than then, so perhaps the same will be true for spacetime.
For the third, the movie Passengers, and others, exemplify such travel methods, with or without hibernation.
Once we can overcome interstellar travel, galaxies might not be so hard to reach.
1) The ability to safely travel at close to the speed of light.
2) Discovery of some new phenomena that allows travel by tunneling through spacetime or around it. IOW, without the effects of time impacting the travelers, or at least only to a minimal degree.
3) Building starcraft liners that are more attractive a place to live, while traveling for centuries at non-relativistic speeds, than living on Earth, whether due to the spirit of adventure or Earth becoming the riskier alternative, though both may be required.
[Wormholes could be another, I suppose, but hardly practical.]
The first allows what we know of Special Relativity to get us where we want to go in a very reasonable amount of time. At 0.999c, for instance, time is reduced to under 5% of "normal" time (as experienced on Earth). [This, unfortunately, would require incredible energy and shields to protect the ship from anything it hits since the tiniest of an object will have incredible impact energy. ]
The second would be hoping our very limited understanding of what spacetime really is might someday be revealed and we can exploit its properties in beneficial ways. Newton admitted he had no idea what gravity was, though he mastered its behavior. We know more about gravity than then, so perhaps the same will be true for spacetime.
For the third, the movie Passengers, and others, exemplify such travel methods, with or without hibernation.
Once we can overcome interstellar travel, galaxies might not be so hard to reach.
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Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
Will we ever be able to go in a different galaxy?
No. Except as Wolfshadw pointed out, possibly to any approaching us. Again, this presupposes the ability of the human race to survive far beyond Wednesday week.
Beyond the local group, the other galaxies are supposed to be departing at ever increasing speed, which makes them unreachable for ever. Unless, of course, they change their minds and come back to meet us.
Cat
No. Except as Wolfshadw pointed out, possibly to any approaching us. Again, this presupposes the ability of the human race to survive far beyond Wednesday week.
Beyond the local group, the other galaxies are supposed to be departing at ever increasing speed, which makes them unreachable for ever. Unless, of course, they change their minds and come back to meet us.
Cat
The Andromeda galaxy is about 2 1/2 million LY away heading toward us. Even if we could travel at or close to c, it’ll still take a couple million years to get there. By then, I doubt folks would even remember we even sent a vessel there. There’s plenty to explore here in our own locale, even at c, it’ll still take generations. Even Star Trek never ventured from our own galaxy.
Wolfshadw
Moderator
Not quite accurate:
ST: TOS - Where No Man Has Gone Before - Cross the great barrier at the edge of the galaxy.
ST: TOS - By Any Other Name - Enterprise is commandeered by Kelvans from the Andromeda galaxy and the ship crosses the barrier.
Never made it there, but they did cross the galactic barrier into intergalactic space.
-Wolf sends
Yes, I remember both episodes, but they didn’t get far outside the galaxy. In the first one, it would’ve taken 300 years at max warp to get to Andromeda galaxy.
EL PIC
Techno Cat
In the movies or your dream only.
The distances are way too far and human life is too short. Too far for even instruments and robots. Effectively we are alone because we can’t travel there. Nor can we communicate.
There are no service stations out there even if you know where to go .. which is a big problem.
If you can’t communicate in any form with other worlds … you are indeed alone !
The distances are way too far and human life is too short. Too far for even instruments and robots. Effectively we are alone because we can’t travel there. Nor can we communicate.
There are no service stations out there even if you know where to go .. which is a big problem.
If you can’t communicate in any form with other worlds … you are indeed alone !
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All depends on the reality of this universe.
If a way exists to bypass time/space then yes you can go anywhere at any speed.
If no way exists to bypass time/space then even the stars are a long way away let alone the next galaxy.
Gravity seems to bypass space/time so i think a mechanism exists for travel in the way gravitons do with no interaction of space/time.
Keeping our planet safe from stupid, greedy and ignorant long enough to make any real understanding of our universe and heading out to discover it will be a tough task.
Nature of short term beings with self serving goals might see us go down an ugly path that sticks and stones become tech again.
Lets see if we can make it to 22 then 23 first
If a way exists to bypass time/space then yes you can go anywhere at any speed.
If no way exists to bypass time/space then even the stars are a long way away let alone the next galaxy.
Gravity seems to bypass space/time so i think a mechanism exists for travel in the way gravitons do with no interaction of space/time.
Keeping our planet safe from stupid, greedy and ignorant long enough to make any real understanding of our universe and heading out to discover it will be a tough task.
Nature of short term beings with self serving goals might see us go down an ugly path that sticks and stones become tech again.
Lets see if we can make it to 22 then 23 first
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SR demonstrates faster travel time. Using 9 nines past the decimal yields only 13.4 Earth years to Andromeda, but the time to get to that speed and slow down is ignored. The energy for this is likely ginormous, too.
Agreed.
I imagine all the methane available in our system, for example, would be not near enough fuel for one trip, even if we could make a tank big enough.
Yep time dilation will make those that go make the trip in far less than a human life.
We could go to the end of the universe (or at least as far as expansion allows) in less than a human life.
Waiting for conformation that anyone arrived is a different story
Fusion might be the energy source, but even it would require massive ships and shields.
Going at near C and running into a sand grain is a bad day.
We have a very long list to discover in our galaxy that IMO will take millions of years even with 1/4 c travel and self replicating robot ships, maybe after that adventure we would discover a time/space bypass and the universe would be our playground.
Yes, and the clocks in other galaxies tick close to our clocks, thus a 30 year trip to Andromeda would advance the Andromeda clocks by 4.6 M years (2.3 M years of travel time + 2.3 M yrs of catching up to the clocks we’ve been observing).Yep time dilation will make those that go make the trip in far less than a human life.
We could go to the end of the universe (or at least as far as expansion allows) in less than a human life.
Waiting for conformation that anyone arrived is a different story
Much too long Helio. The clock aboard ship will clock 30 years travel time. The speed of light is 186,000mps rounded off. At one light second from Earth it will take one second for light to traverse the distance to the observer on Earth, at which time the real space-time traveler is at a far greater distance than one light second from Earth and the observer on Earth, though the relative traveler, the traveler relative to the observer, is said to be the sole traveler (there, accordingly, being no other) by too many physicists on Earth,
The observer living at the time on Earth, if anyone is still alive on Earth at the time, observes (herein saying it's possible) the traveler to arrive at Andromeda 2.3 million years plus 30 years after leaving the Earth, having aged only 30 years during the voyage of observed 2.3 million years plus 30 years (light taking one year to transit a distance of 1 x 6 trillion miles of space: light taking 1000 years to transit a distance of 1000 x 6 trillion miles of space : light taking 1 million years to transit a distance of 1 million x 6 trillion miles of space, and so on and on (the truth of time stretching giving light a straight-line constant of 186,000 miles per second all the way from here to Andromeda)). The traveler is long, long, dead when the observer, many, many, generations of observer later, observes the relative traveler to arrive at Andromeda (again having aged just 30 years, and the ship's clock having just clocked 30 years of travel time).
There is a flat refusal to look at and deal in the warp capability of the geometry of space-time. A warp capability the observers on Earth would not observe other than as described above. You see, I included space as an equal in the merger of space-time. You start warping time, you have to warp space right with it as a naked singularity of space-time warp. Both Earth's and Andromeda's clocks would only advance 30 years during the time the ship's clock advanced 30 years. And that would be exactly what the Earth observer would observe for Andromeda's clock, so to speak, upon the traveler's arrival at Andromeda, an observation of relative space-time Andromeda 2.3 million years behind the real space-time of Earth and unobserved, unobservable, real space-time Andromeda.
The real space-time traveler, and his clock, was lost to relativity with the real -space-time observer almost immediately upon leaving the vicinity of Earth. Actually sooner, but "almost" is good enough for government work. The relative space-time traveler, the distorted, warped, traveler in the light, slowing ever more in time at and with the speed of light to a final rearward in time difference of 2.3 million years (give or take 30 years), never loses connectivity to the relative space-time observer (just simply distorts and warps).
And by the way, I described an "observation" made at very close to -- in fact slower than -- the speed of light. A "relative" observation. But to think that that is the reality of what is in fact a multi-dimensional picture is to be a one-dimensional stick being.
I think we are going to have very little trouble, once we are out there and able to travel under constant powering (constant accelerations / decelerations), traveling through multiple dimensions greater than one or two to get from here to there in the universe ... or rather to travel from relative universe to relative universe. Not just star to star, but galaxy to galaxy ... therefore universe to universe (which star to star and galaxy to galaxy, and broadly much more, including, vertically, much more and much less, is). We are more or less "fly over" country, not even a spec-of-dust, in such a richness of vastness awaiting our entrance, our birthing, into it.
The observer living at the time on Earth, if anyone is still alive on Earth at the time, observes (herein saying it's possible) the traveler to arrive at Andromeda 2.3 million years plus 30 years after leaving the Earth, having aged only 30 years during the voyage of observed 2.3 million years plus 30 years (light taking one year to transit a distance of 1 x 6 trillion miles of space: light taking 1000 years to transit a distance of 1000 x 6 trillion miles of space : light taking 1 million years to transit a distance of 1 million x 6 trillion miles of space, and so on and on (the truth of time stretching giving light a straight-line constant of 186,000 miles per second all the way from here to Andromeda)). The traveler is long, long, dead when the observer, many, many, generations of observer later, observes the relative traveler to arrive at Andromeda (again having aged just 30 years, and the ship's clock having just clocked 30 years of travel time).
There is a flat refusal to look at and deal in the warp capability of the geometry of space-time. A warp capability the observers on Earth would not observe other than as described above. You see, I included space as an equal in the merger of space-time. You start warping time, you have to warp space right with it as a naked singularity of space-time warp. Both Earth's and Andromeda's clocks would only advance 30 years during the time the ship's clock advanced 30 years. And that would be exactly what the Earth observer would observe for Andromeda's clock, so to speak, upon the traveler's arrival at Andromeda, an observation of relative space-time Andromeda 2.3 million years behind the real space-time of Earth and unobserved, unobservable, real space-time Andromeda.
The real space-time traveler, and his clock, was lost to relativity with the real -space-time observer almost immediately upon leaving the vicinity of Earth. Actually sooner, but "almost" is good enough for government work. The relative space-time traveler, the distorted, warped, traveler in the light, slowing ever more in time at and with the speed of light to a final rearward in time difference of 2.3 million years (give or take 30 years), never loses connectivity to the relative space-time observer (just simply distorts and warps).
And by the way, I described an "observation" made at very close to -- in fact slower than -- the speed of light. A "relative" observation. But to think that that is the reality of what is in fact a multi-dimensional picture is to be a one-dimensional stick being.
I think we are going to have very little trouble, once we are out there and able to travel under constant powering (constant accelerations / decelerations), traveling through multiple dimensions greater than one or two to get from here to there in the universe ... or rather to travel from relative universe to relative universe. Not just star to star, but galaxy to galaxy ... therefore universe to universe (which star to star and galaxy to galaxy, and broadly much more, including, vertically, much more and much less, is). We are more or less "fly over" country, not even a spec-of-dust, in such a richness of vastness awaiting our entrance, our birthing, into it.
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Now, there’s a SciFy novel for ya. They detect what seems to be intelligent radio signal from a star in the Andromeda galaxy. They send a ship to make the journey. 4 million years of real time pass by. They arrive to find the star has passed through the red giant phase and is now a white dwarf in an expanding nebula, and the planet is just . . . Gone.
Wolfshadw
Moderator
Did they survive? Did they find a new world? Did they also detect OUR signal and headed for Earth?
-Wolf sends
-Wolf sends
From Earth, nothing can be seen to travel to Andromeda in less than 2.3 M years, no matter what the spacecraft clock says.
Upon arriving Andromeda, if the travelers shine a light — triggering a S/N would be super helpful- it won’t reach Earth for another 2.3 million years, hence 4.6 million years.
Another way to consider this is to imagine if you used a magic wand of entanglement that triggered a SN in Andromeda instantly. It would then take 2.3 million years for that light to reach us. But we don’t have that magic wand so the fastest we could get there and light the fuse would be an additional 2.3 million years. 2 x 2.3 = 4.6 million years total.
How is this wrong?
Upon arriving Andromeda, if the travelers shine a light — triggering a S/N would be super helpful- it won’t reach Earth for another 2.3 million years, hence 4.6 million years.
Another way to consider this is to imagine if you used a magic wand of entanglement that triggered a SN in Andromeda instantly. It would then take 2.3 million years for that light to reach us. But we don’t have that magic wand so the fastest we could get there and light the fuse would be an additional 2.3 million years. 2 x 2.3 = 4.6 million years total.
How is this wrong?
EL PIC
Techno Cat
There is no Magic Wand in Space Travel and there is no refueling regardless of vehicle type !!
Nor is there any known planet to go to ..
FTL or even at Light Speed is a dream of incredible proportions.
The technology required to travel between galaxies is far beyond humanity's present capabilities, and currently only the subject of speculation, hypothesis, and science fiction.
Dream On ..
At present capability of space travel it is ..
Nor is there any known planet to go to ..
FTL or even at Light Speed is a dream of incredible proportions.
The technology required to travel between galaxies is far beyond humanity's present capabilities, and currently only the subject of speculation, hypothesis, and science fiction.
Dream On ..
At present capability of space travel it is ..
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Oops. I see my error.
If we, from Earth, watch for 2.5 million years we will see them arrive there along with the light of a SN celebrating their arrival. So, yes, only 2.3 million years, not 4.6.
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