Zodiac Astronomy?

[AmeerikaUlePilvede]

Does anybody here believe in the zodiac? Where astronomy started? It seems a lot of people have started to forget about it. I'm a Leo myself and a lot of my friends have told me how I follow the description to a "T". However, when I've looked at it in-depth, its always confused me. Primarily because of my low amount of knowledge for this peticular subject. Any specialists in this area here?

 

[Shpaget]

You are confusing astronomy with astrology.
Astronomy is the science studying celestial objects and phenomena.
Astrology is the name for group for scams relating personality.

 

[MeteorWayne]

You are referring to astrology, which is nota science, and only vaguely related to astronomy.
Any "experts" in this pseudoscience will be found in The Unexplained forum, so I will move this topic there.

 

[SpaceTas]

Nobody here believes that the position of the Sun, Moon planets and stars at the time of your birth gives any indication of your personality, your compatibility with others or your future.

Yes astronomy and astrology shared a common origin, but parted company roughly 350 years ago. Since then western astrology has gone round and round in circles endlessly doing variations on the same things while astronomy has gone from knowing where the stars/planets etc are in the sky to having a reasonable idea about the origin of the Universe.

The factual basis of astrology is wrong, eg. the Zodiac of the 12 constellations does not include all the constellations through which the Sun appears to move. Me, my sun sign is Ophiuchus! Most astrologers use a coordinate system that is 2 thousand years out of date. When the Sun is said to be in Aries it is actually in the constellation of Pisces going on Aquarius. So you are really a stay at home; Cancer, rather than a leader of men; Leo.

Now to say that you are a Leo, is actually bad astrology. This is your sun sign, but if you ever get an horoscope interpreted (there are programs out there that do even the interpreting) you'll find out that the Sun's position is only a small factor in the whole reading. ... Fork over the $40 to $100+ for a reading (make sure you get a tape, or a written interpretation with chart)


Now if you want to start finding about astronomy, a good place to start is finding your "own" constellation of Leo. It actually even looks a bit like a Lion. Its not up till after midnight but wait 4 months and it will visible in the evening toward the east. Just found this simple site:http://www.popastro.com/youngstargazers/thismonth.html.

To start is free and can keep your mind working for life.

 

[MeteorWayne]

And for the next few nights (or weeks for real meteor geeks like me) the Leonid meteor shower appears to come from Leo's head!

 

[origin]

Does anybody here believe in the zodiac? Where astronomy started? It seems a lot of people have started to forget about it. I'm a Leo myself and a lot of my friends have told me how I follow the description to a "T". However, when I've looked at it in-depth, its always confused me. Primarily because of my low amount of knowledge for this peticular subject. Any specialists in this area here?

Here is a fun little exercise to do with your friends that believe in this stuff. Tell them that you are skeptical and ask to read them a horescope from the week before to see if it fits. Ask them their sign and then purposely read the wrong horiscope; chances are very great that they will say that the prediction was right on.

They won't be fibbing because the point is these things are so vague that they fit anybody. Ever notice the predictions or descriptions never say that you are prone to depression and are a bit of a twit, for instance?

 

[ZenGalacticore]

Does anybody here believe in the zodiac? Where astronomy started? It seems a lot of people have started to forget about it. I'm a Leo myself and a lot of my friends have told me how I follow the description to a "T". However, when I've looked at it in-depth, its always confused me. Primarily because of my low amount of knowledge for this peticular subject. Any specialists in this area here?

Here is a fun little exercise to do with your friends that believe in this stuff. Tell them that you are skeptical and ask to read them a horescope from the week before to see if it fits. Ask them their sign and then purposely read the wrong horiscope; chances are very great that they will say that the prediction was right on.

They won't be fibbing because the point is these things are so vague that they fit anybody. Ever notice the predictions or descriptions never say that you are prone to depression and are a bit of a twit, for instance?

Go to page 12 in Free Space and read my "Horror-Scope". It relates to what Origin just said. pp 12, 6th post down.

 

[mabus]

Does anybody here believe in the zodiac? Where astronomy started? It seems a lot of people have started to forget about it. I'm a Leo myself and a lot of my friends have told me how I follow the description to a "T". However, when I've looked at it in-depth, its always confused me. Primarily because of my low amount of knowledge for this peticular subject. Any specialists in this area here?

Let's work out exactly what astrologers are claiming. Astrologers claim that whatever your "sign", the moons and planets and stars overhead will affect each person in a different way, now this raises a couple of logical problems. Let's really simplify this just to keep it super simple.

Let's say you get 12 people in a room, each born under a different astrological sign on the exact same day. Now, let's assume that we look at Jupiter's influence on the people we have in that room. How do astrologers claim jupiter will affect these twelve people? Well, they come in two camps.

Some astrologers believe that depending on when you were born, years ago, jupiter's "pull" on your will be different. That it will somehow affect your differently today. Why would a record of when you were born, or the location of a star or planet have such an affect on you years later? Another question to ask is, why would it affect only the person born on that day and not everyone who is alive at the time?

Others claim that it's effect on you is immediate, that it affects you based on the constellation or planet or star's position in the sky today. This calls into question again, why would the present position in the sky of any such object affect anyone in the room differently? Why should the pull of Jupiter's gravity affect you differently from me, just because of a date you happened to be born on decades ago (when I was alive anyway).

You can see how it doesn't make any sense at all fairly quickly.

The pull that they frequently refer to, wanting to sound scientific is Gravity. Problem is an apple sitting on your desk has more of a gravitational influence on you than jupiter, because of how far away jupiter is from you. Given all the massive objects around us all the time, you can see how completely irrelevant the gravitational pull of the planets, and much less the constellations of distant stars, would be.

Put simply, astrology developed at a time when people ascribed any events to the gods and to magic. It's a time when they burned witches when their crops didn't grow, their knowledge of how the universe worked was not exactly great. They did however notice that the temperature become warmer or colder depending on the position of the stars in the skies (the seasons) and they deduced correctly that there was some correlation between the moving stars across the skies and events on earth. Of course over time, not understanding WHY events on earth such as seasons (and droughts, and famines, and rain seasons) occured in correlation to the moving stars, they assumed the stars CAUSED these events. It's a natural progression to go from there to assume they must also influence people. Today of course we know better, yet the supernatural belief in astrology is still with us, a remnant from this earlier time.

As for you fitting the stereotype of a Leo to a tee, give this video a look. It documents an experiment conducted by famed magician and noted debunker James Randi who exposes these kinds of belief systems. He gives a class of students personalized horoscopes and then asks them to to rate how accurately the horoscopes describe them. On a scale of 1 to 5, about half rated their horoscope to be a 4, and the other half a 5 (the highest possible score). He then has them hand their horoscope to the person next to them, so that everyone now has the horoscope from someone else. Of course, they discovered that they all had the exact same horoscope.

The reason is that horoscopes tend to be very vague and generic information. You are pragmatic, loyal, shy, people don't realise how easily hurt you are, you like being with others but feel insecure, you like helping people but feel often others are not there for you. You are dependable and honest etc... All of these descriptions won't describe you, but most will because that's pretty much how we all see ourselves. When we read these kinds of vague generic descriptions we tend to see ourselves in them.

Another aspect to this is that we tend to forget the misses and remember the hits. Think of all the daily horoscopes you've read in the paper. How many said "you will experiance a change today" or some equally vague prediction. You will probably come home later that night and try with all your might to think of what change you experienced that fit the prediction, we've all done it at some point in our lives. Try as you might though, sometimes you just can't find something that truly fits, and you forget about it. But what if you read the paper today and it said you'd experiance a dramatic change, and you got hit by a car. Suddenly it dawns on you "My horoscope told me something dramatic would happen!!!!" and you WILL remember the amazing prediction that came true.

If you're interested in the randi horoscope video btw you can see it on youtube. Here's the link -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dp2Zqk8vHw&feature=related

 

[a_lost_packet_]

...They won't be fibbing because the point is these things are so vague that they fit anybody. Ever notice the predictions or descriptions never say that you are prone to depression and are a bit of a twit, for instance?

But, all mine say I'm a bit of a twit.

Does that mean anything?

 

[ArcCentral]

Does anybody here believe in the zodiac? Where astronomy started? It seems a lot of people have started to forget about it. I'm a Leo myself and a lot of my friends have told me how I follow the description to a "T". However, when I've looked at it in-depth, its always confused me. Primarily because of my low amount of knowledge for this peticular subject. Any specialists in this area here?

I've notice that most Leos are slobs, at least the male Leos.

Specialist here

What would you like to know?

 

[darkmatter4brains]

...They won't be fibbing because the point is these things are so vague that they fit anybody. Ever notice the predictions or descriptions never say that you are prone to depression and are a bit of a twit, for instance?

But, all mine say I'm a bit of a twit.

Does that mean anything?

Yeah, it means your a twit. hahah, j/k

------------------------------------------------------

On another note, it's important to distinguish between traditional astrology and modern day astrology that has been twisted and distorted away from what traditional astrology was.

Most streams of traditional astrology says the astronomical alignments are just ONE influence in your life amongst many. It DOES NOT say you are "programmed" like some computer at your birth by the planets and you have to act a certain way from then on out. Rather, it says there are many influences in your life, including the stars and planets, that effect your life. (like parents, upbringing, culture, environment, etc) But, most importantly, you are a conscious being imbued with an EGO that can become aware of these influences and transcend them and become your own person exercising free will to behave the way you want to behave. In other words, traditional astrology says that you don't have to act anything like how it predicts you will, and that's sort of the whole point!! But, you wont hear that too often in your newspaper horoscopes!!

I'm not saying I believe in any of it, but it's just nice to know where exactly it's all coming from. Otherwise your arguing against something the modern media created, which is always BS, rather than the original phenomenon as it came into being.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Not that there's any logical basis for the old astrology view that the stars and planets could have any influence whatsoever on humans on earth... :roll: :lol:

 

[ZenGalacticore]

And good luck finding two different "astrologers" whose horoscopes for the same day or the same person agree. In fact, they are almost always very different, and equally vague.

It's mostly silly women who buy into astrology. When a chick asks me what my sign is, I always say "STOP SIGN".

(I'm not saying all women are silly, just the ones who take astrology seriously.)

 

[MeteorWayne]

Like Nancy Reagan, which was really scary considering who her husband was....

 

[ZenGalacticore]

That was SCARY! My mother was a logical woman of letters, and what I would call a "rational feminist". She despised Nancy Reagan, for the astrology reason among others.

 

[Shpaget]

How do astrologers explain the fact that planets have significantly different orbital periods resulting in their different positions in the sky each year? For example, Jupiter's position in sky today is different from what it was a year ago, right? So, how come a Scorpio has same personality no matter which year (s)he was born? :?

 

[ZenGalacticore]

How do astrologers explain the fact that planets have significantly different orbital periods resulting in their different positions in the sky each year? For example, Jupiter's position in sky today is different from what it was a year ago, right? So, how come a Scorpio has same personality no matter which year (s)he was born? :?

Oh that's easy. It also depends on what your Moon sign is! :lol:

It is funny. Jupiter's orbit is what, twelve Earth years? Something like that, and Saturn's IIRC is 22 years. They don't explain it because they don't know what they're talking about. It's all mumbo-jumbo. I wouldn't even dignify it by calling it "pseudo-science", as at least some psuedo-science may sometimes have elements of truth.

It's just entertainment. And of course, $$$$ comes into the equation. People can make bukoo bucks pedaling their mumbo-jumbo. Like the people profiting on this whole 2012 bullarkey. But in the end, they've done nothing worthwhile or important.

 

[jim48]

You are referring to astrology, which is nota science, and only vaguely related to astronomy.
Any "experts" in this pseudoscience will be found in The Unexplained forum, so I will move this topic there.

Wayne and I don't often agree but this time we do wholeheartedly!

 

[ArcCentral]

Judging by the comments on this thread, is quite safe to say that none of them are based on any understanding, whatsoever, of the subject of astrology.

How do astrologers explain the fact that planets have significantly different orbital periods resulting in their different positions in the sky each year? For example, Jupiter's position in sky today is different from what it was a year ago, right? So, how come a Scorpio has same personality no matter which year (s)he was born

Jupiter does not rule the personality persay, thats generally taken up by the rising sign.

And good luck finding two different "astrologers" whose horoscopes for the same day or the same person agree. In fact, they are almost always very different, and equally vague.

Is this comment based on experience?

 

[jim48]

Astrologers had been doing charts for centuries before all of the planets had been discovered. Then came Uranus and later Pluto, which the astrologers had never factored into their calculations. They didn't so much as bat an eyelash. They went right on with their astrology as though the previous absence of Uranus and Pluto was irrelevant.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I wonder if they stopped using Pluto when it was downgraded to a dwarf planet. And if they include Pluto, do they include the other dwarf planets Ceres, Eris, Haumea, and Makemake? If not, why not?

 

[CalliArcale]

Some astrologers use many minor planets, and have for years. I have no idea how they decide which ones to use, nor what they are supposed to signify, given they're so teeny. But yes -- astrologers do use places like Ceres! Well, some do. There isn't a lot of standardization of methodology. It's kinda made up as they go along, as far as I can tell.

I recall a number of astrologers were particularly offended by Pluto being downgraded to "dwarf planet". There was a gal in Russia who was particularly irate, and filed a nuisance lawsuit. I don't recall who the target of the lawsuit was, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the IAU.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

I'm surprised many of our omni-wise "astrologers" haven't used the whole Pluto thing as an excuse for when they're wrong, which is always. I could see it now "Oh, well, um... your horoscope was off because the power of Pluto has been diminished, um, demoted."

"But it was men that demoted Pluto."

"Yeah, well, um, the men who did that were all Sun Aries born in Moon Aries. Very powerful people. And uh..." :lol:

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

I wonder if they stopped using Pluto when it was downgraded to a dwarf planet. And if they include Pluto, do they include the other dwarf planets Ceres, Eris, Haumea, and Makemake? If not, why not?

You've just given some a way to make another $25.

"Step right up folks ... palms read for $10, your horoscope (lite) for $25 and an all extensive reading including Pluto, Ceres, Xena, Haumea and Makemake for just $50. Right up here folks, right up here !!"

 

[ZenGalacticore]

Yeah, what about Sedna? Isn't she as large as Pluto?

Actually, Ceres only affects small things. Like mis-placing your car keys. Whereas Pluto affects more important and worrisome things, like losing your wallet. :lol: